Horizontal lines
- Thread starter Decius
- Start date
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: Horizontal lines
I hope this helps considering I am not 100% positive...
Detail level.
I hope this helps considering I am not 100% positive...
Detail level.
Re: Horizontal lines
Sounds more like interlacing on his computer monitor. Decius - do you see this on your television or computer? If computer, what are you using to play back your .avi files? (Windows Media Player always give me bad interlacing no matter what settings I use.)
Sounds more like interlacing on his computer monitor. Decius - do you see this on your television or computer? If computer, what are you using to play back your .avi files? (Windows Media Player always give me bad interlacing no matter what settings I use.)
Re: Horizontal lines
John - I don't think it is detail level because it looks more like a format incompatibility or frame rate/type issue.
Peter - I am playing the videos in Zoom PLayer (the player I use with everything). Sometimes after I optimize files in DivX the horizontal lines dissapear.
I think it may relate to progressive vs interlaced because it is 24p footage...
John - I don't think it is detail level because it looks more like a format incompatibility or frame rate/type issue.
Peter - I am playing the videos in Zoom PLayer (the player I use with everything). Sometimes after I optimize files in DivX the horizontal lines dissapear.
I think it may relate to progressive vs interlaced because it is 24p footage...
Flintstone
Well-known member
Re: Horizontal lines
What NLE are you using? Did you remove the pull-down to have true 24p, if not, then your footage is still in 60i format.
What NLE are you using? Did you remove the pull-down to have true 24p, if not, then your footage is still in 60i format.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: Horizontal lines
NLE
Non-linear Editing.
NLE
Non-linear Editing.
Re: Horizontal lines
Dying for an answer here.. i'm sure it's something simple that I hav emissed but I'm not sure what it is.
I use Vegas and open a new project using the 24p (2-3-3-2) template....
I capture a file using the built in capture...
and when i add that captured file to the timeline and look at the properties it says "DV 24p (2-3-3-2)"
but when I view it in media player or zoomplayer I get the interlaced "Steps/disturbances" that should not occur in progressive.
so what am I doing wrong?
Dying for an answer here.. i'm sure it's something simple that I hav emissed but I'm not sure what it is.
I use Vegas and open a new project using the 24p (2-3-3-2) template....
I capture a file using the built in capture...
and when i add that captured file to the timeline and look at the properties it says "DV 24p (2-3-3-2)"
but when I view it in media player or zoomplayer I get the interlaced "Steps/disturbances" that should not occur in progressive.
so what am I doing wrong?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Horizontal lines
You're not doing anything wrong. Vegas doesn't remove the interlaced frames on capture, it interprets them out during editing. So you could import that same file into a 60i timeline and it would retain its original cadence. The file, as captured on your hard drive, is still stored as 60i -- which means the interlaced frames are still in there, but it's no big deal because Vegas knows which ones they are and Vegas ignores them when working in a 24P timeline.
You're not doing anything wrong. Vegas doesn't remove the interlaced frames on capture, it interprets them out during editing. So you could import that same file into a 60i timeline and it would retain its original cadence. The file, as captured on your hard drive, is still stored as 60i -- which means the interlaced frames are still in there, but it's no big deal because Vegas knows which ones they are and Vegas ignores them when working in a 24P timeline.
Re: Horizontal lines
I guess my question is, how do I get my progressive video to look progressive...without the interlaced horizontal lines disturbing the picture during movement?
I mean, even when i render the file out of Vegas using the 24p template the final file has those horizontal disturbances.
I guess my question is, how do I get my progressive video to look progressive...without the interlaced horizontal lines disturbing the picture during movement?
I mean, even when i render the file out of Vegas using the 24p template the final file has those horizontal disturbances.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Horizontal lines
That's because video is 60 interlaced fields per second, and you're using a source that's only 24 frames per second.
If your destination is television, you cannot get rid of the interlaced fields -- there won't be enough frames to go around!
If your destination is a computer screen (something like a Quicktime or an .AVI) then you render out using your own template, something that is 24 frames per second progressive, etc. That will eliminate any blended fields.
If you want to make a video file that will play on a television, but you're watching that on a computer, you're GOING to see interlace lines... it's a byproduct of the fact that computer screens are progressive-scan but television screens are interlaced, so if you're making something for a TV (interlaced) and watching it on a computer (progressive) you're going to see interlace lines -- it's unavoidable.
Watch it on a television, you'll never see those interlace lines.
That's because video is 60 interlaced fields per second, and you're using a source that's only 24 frames per second.
If your destination is television, you cannot get rid of the interlaced fields -- there won't be enough frames to go around!
If your destination is a computer screen (something like a Quicktime or an .AVI) then you render out using your own template, something that is 24 frames per second progressive, etc. That will eliminate any blended fields.
If you want to make a video file that will play on a television, but you're watching that on a computer, you're GOING to see interlace lines... it's a byproduct of the fact that computer screens are progressive-scan but television screens are interlaced, so if you're making something for a TV (interlaced) and watching it on a computer (progressive) you're going to see interlace lines -- it's unavoidable.
Watch it on a television, you'll never see those interlace lines.
Re: Horizontal lines
Okay, I realized the problem...
Kind of.
When i arbitrated the exporting process from Vegas using the Panasonic DV plugin at 23.9 fps with progressive, it looks nice...
However using the built in vegas 2-3-3-2 setting, the lines still exist, which leads me to believe it is not encoding it in progressive mode.
When i encode using hte same NTSC DV codec built in but run it at 29 fps progressive, the lines are gone.
Anyone else getting buggy behaviour from the 2-3-3-2 pulldown setting? is it supposed ot output in progressive or interlaced (because you can't change that setting when choosing the built in pulldown method)?
Okay, I realized the problem...
Kind of.
When i arbitrated the exporting process from Vegas using the Panasonic DV plugin at 23.9 fps with progressive, it looks nice...
However using the built in vegas 2-3-3-2 setting, the lines still exist, which leads me to believe it is not encoding it in progressive mode.
When i encode using hte same NTSC DV codec built in but run it at 29 fps progressive, the lines are gone.
Anyone else getting buggy behaviour from the 2-3-3-2 pulldown setting? is it supposed ot output in progressive or interlaced (because you can't change that setting when choosing the built in pulldown method)?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Horizontal lines
There will ALWAYS be interlaced lines in any sort of NTSC-compliant video, except 30P.
2:3:3:2 outputs four progressive frames, and one split frame.
2:3 outputs three progressive frames, and two split frames.
The split frames are necessary because 24P is recorded as 48 fields per second, but NTSC video requires 60 fields per second -- the difference must be made up somehow, and the pulldown schemes (2:3:3:2, 2:3) are how it's done -- and they introduce interlaced frames, no way around it.
If you absolutely cannot stand the look of an interlaced frame, consider shooting 30P, which looks a lot like 24P but there will never be an interlaced frame.
There will ALWAYS be interlaced lines in any sort of NTSC-compliant video, except 30P.
2:3:3:2 outputs four progressive frames, and one split frame.
2:3 outputs three progressive frames, and two split frames.
The split frames are necessary because 24P is recorded as 48 fields per second, but NTSC video requires 60 fields per second -- the difference must be made up somehow, and the pulldown schemes (2:3:3:2, 2:3) are how it's done -- and they introduce interlaced frames, no way around it.
If you absolutely cannot stand the look of an interlaced frame, consider shooting 30P, which looks a lot like 24P but there will never be an interlaced frame.
Re: Horizontal lines
Okay, I "sort" of understand... however there is still confusion:
Why are there no jaggedy edges when i render in 24 fps, progressive with the Panasonic DV codec, whereas there are many jaggedy edges using the built in 24p (2-3-3-2) NTSC DV codec?
Both codecs have usually displayed very similar output.
Is the pulldown SUPPOSED to somehow make the output interlaced?
Okay, I "sort" of understand... however there is still confusion:
Why are there no jaggedy edges when i render in 24 fps, progressive with the Panasonic DV codec, whereas there are many jaggedy edges using the built in 24p (2-3-3-2) NTSC DV codec?
Both codecs have usually displayed very similar output.
Is the pulldown SUPPOSED to somehow make the output interlaced?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Horizontal lines
Pulldown, by definition, is the adding of additional fields in order to make the 24 frame rate compatible with the NTSC 60 field frame rate. Yes, if you add pulldown, you will be creating interlaced frames -- that is, by very definition, what pulldown does.
If you use the 2:3:3:2 NTSC preset, it will introduce one blended frame in every five-frame sequence, or six blended frames per second.
If you're rendering out something as 24fps progressive, then that file won't be compatible with NTSC video, it'll probably only be useful as a computer file (an .AVI file, for example). If you want it to play on NTSC, you have to add pulldown, and that means adding interlaced frames.
(they don't HAVE to be interlaced, of course... you could just duplicate the fourth frame of every sequence to make it be five frames, i.e. 1,2,3,4,4, 5,6,7,8,9,9... etc... but the point of adding the interlaced frames is that they smooth out the motion. Duplicating frames would introduce noticeable judder, whereas a blended frame is a smoother transition).
Pulldown, by definition, is the adding of additional fields in order to make the 24 frame rate compatible with the NTSC 60 field frame rate. Yes, if you add pulldown, you will be creating interlaced frames -- that is, by very definition, what pulldown does.
If you use the 2:3:3:2 NTSC preset, it will introduce one blended frame in every five-frame sequence, or six blended frames per second.
If you're rendering out something as 24fps progressive, then that file won't be compatible with NTSC video, it'll probably only be useful as a computer file (an .AVI file, for example). If you want it to play on NTSC, you have to add pulldown, and that means adding interlaced frames.
(they don't HAVE to be interlaced, of course... you could just duplicate the fourth frame of every sequence to make it be five frames, i.e. 1,2,3,4,4, 5,6,7,8,9,9... etc... but the point of adding the interlaced frames is that they smooth out the motion. Duplicating frames would introduce noticeable judder, whereas a blended frame is a smoother transition).