Hobbit: Overly detailed 5K and HFR failing to please

Again, it's really not a matter of it being "more appealing," I don't think, not like the Golden Ratio. It's just that a slower frame rate, not looking like reality, is by and large a more appropriate artistic canvas for fiction. Much like, I suppose, if you want to write a dirge rather than a springtime lilt, you're better off choosing a minor key.
 
I've seen guys using 2:1 anamorphics on their 16:9 sensors and getting something like a 3.56:1 ultra-mega widescreen. I think it looks preposterous, but some folks apparently seem to think that it's "more cinematic".

I think that's an example of people always clutching to the next thing that'll finally make their work look cinematic. Or more cinematic than the standard-fare. For a while, it was wide screen instead of 4:3. Then it was 24p. Then shallow DOF. Now, dynamic range, and RAW are all the rage. Global shutter will be another.

I've seen more and more people cropping their 16:9 stuff to 2.4:1 in post.

Of course, it's not one magic ingredient that makes your work suddenly leap into cinematic territory, but I think people will always cling to those extra little edges.
 
I agree there are some "natural rules", particularly in music which is grounded in math.

I hope this isn't a distraction from the topic and I'm not advocating for any particular frame rate. (Although I do prefer 24p as of now.)

Grounded in math brings up an interesting side note (no pun intended). Without going into heavy technical details, a vibrating string or column of air has a fundamental frequency that also generates a series of overtones that we commonly refer to as scales. And if one is creating a single instrument according to this "natural" tuning system, one arrives as what is known as Just Intonation.

The problem arises when you move from one fundamental to another, since the overtones produced by the different fundamentals are slightly different mathematically. This became an issue with piano music and a problem for Classical composers when moving from one key to another within a single piece of music. The opening section based on one fundamental would sound fine until you moved to another "key" which would sound very strange. To overcome this, Equal Temperament tuning was created where all overtones were slightly nudged, or equalled out, to create equal spacing regardless of the fundamental tone.

So how does that relate to this topic? Well western ears have been conditioned to accept this arrangement as being the norm, when in fact it is not. Moving between Just Intonation and Equal Temperament causes people to react negatively to such changes. It's out of tune they say. But the question is, what is in tune here? And can we be conditioned through education and repeated listening to reaccept this out of tune-ness. The answer is yes for some people, and no for others.

A further example would be Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. By all accounts riots broke out at its first performance, whereas today the piece is very much a staple of many orchestral repertoires and the dissonances prevalent in the piece now accepted and embraced, even to the point of a final indignity, the use of the piece for commercials. :happy:

I do realize that our aural and visual senses react differently and that there is no necessary correlation between the two.
 
I don't doubt the sincerity of everybody who just feels something like "24fps just looks better" - but I've yet to hear anything that points to that being a "natural rule", rather than conditioning.

I can only answer that question from a personal point of view, when we went ourselves to see the Hobbit.

In my case, it was less a case of liking 48fps for it's own look, than sheer relief that the flicker and judder I've come to associate with 3D largely went away. I said earlier that my opinions of the Hobbit experience and HFR were mixed, it wasn't a universal "yes, this is great!" But OVERALL the lack of flicker and judder in 3D was the main difference to me. I'd already made my mind up not to see any more 3D films at the cinema - now seeing one in HFR may make me change my mind. And at the moment, 3D seems to be inextricably linked to the whole rationale behind HFR - to quote just one article:

.

What if it's 2d? Which one do you prefer then?

Personally, I"m not interested in the current 3d. I don't like the "picture window" approach. Why do the 3 dimensions stop at the screen instead of coming out into the theater? That's the entire reason for using 3d IMO. The picture window just becomes blah after the first 20 minutes when you finally get used to it and it just hurts my eyes, HFR or not.

Secondly, it's not "real" 3d. Real 3d means I will see something different depending on where I sit in the theater. If you are standing directly in front of me whatever is behind you is blocked from my vision. If I move to the left or right of you, I will see what is behind you. THAT is actual 3d. Right now no matter where I move I'll have the same view. That's probably what causes my eyes to hurt, this totally unnatural rendering of 3d. Until that is fixed the frame rate is irrelevant IMO.

Lastly, I think that you are creating a false choice. That if it's not a "natural rule" then it must be "conditioning". I don't think this is true or an accurate description of what audiences experience.

"Conditioning" makes it seem like there is some sort of Pavlov's dog effect. That you do not like something because it is actually pleasurable, but merely because it is associated with something else.

con·di·tion·ing (k
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ng)n. Psychology A process of behavior modification by which a subject comes to associate a desired behavior with a previously unrelated stimulus.

If it were truly "conditioning" that means there is nothing inherently beautiful about 24fps. That actually it is ugly and the ONLY reason you like it is because you've been taught to like it by "conditioning".

"Conditioning" is not the same thing as changing tastes, deciding over time that you like something that you did not formerly like.

When the bell rings the dog salivates. Bells have NOTHING to do with food. The dog salivates because he's been "conditioned" to associate the bell with food, since he gets fed every time the bell rings.

To show that people like 24p merely from "conditioning" you're going to have to show that it's ugly unless people are somehow taught to like it.

I can easily show that a bell has nothing to do with food, unless I "condition" you to associate a bell with food by only feeding you after i ring a bell.

You have to show that 24p is actually ugly unless you teach someone to like it. THAT would be "conditioning". If it's possible for someone to think 24fps is beautiful without being taught that it is beautiful, it's simply not conditioning. If it's not "conditioning" then people will continue to find 24fps beautiful no matter how much HFR you show them. That doesn't mean it has to be a "natural rule" of some sort.

I don't think there's a "natural rule" for thinking clouds are beautiful, and certainly not everyone does. However, I'm pretty sure people aren't "conditioned" to think clouds are beautiful either.
 
My reference to the Golden Ratio wasn't really in terms of aspect ratios, it was that the Golden Ratio is something that is programmed into us genetically. We like it. It's aesthetically pleasing. In studies of beauty in faces, researchers have consistently found that the proportions of the face are considered more attractive the closer they approach the golden ratio. Furthermore, the golden ratio is exceptionally close to the difference between numbers in the Fibonacci series, which governs a lot of natural structures.
There are two aspects to the Golden Ratio and Fibonacci series - the pure mathematical aspects, together with the ways they undeniably relate to some physical and biological phenomena - and the aesthetic aspects.

It's pointless to discuss the first set of aspects here, they should be undeniable. The aesthetic aspects are more tricky. I confess that about 15 years ago I used the whole subject of the Golden Rule to argue in favour of 16:9 TV when the majority view amongst most people I knew was "what's wrong with 4:3!?!" I still much prefer 16:9 to 4:3 - but I'm much less sure about exactly how strict any Golden Ratio connection is. For example, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image) , the rectangles to the right of the screen. Try to do it without looking at the writing first. Which of them looks the most pleasing?

Personally, I prefer something a little wider than Golden Ratio, something more like the HDTV or widescreen film ratios. And if the Golden Ratio really was special - then why did the film and TV industries not latch onto it precisely?

So what about the historic references? In architecture, going back several thousand years, why is it seen? There are practical reasons for something between a square and a 2:1 rectangle, but why the Golden Ratio exactly? I understand one big reason is that it's very easy to construct with simple instruments - hence is easily and precisely repeatable. Start with a square, bisect a side, use that point as the centre of a circle, set the radius to a further corner - and where the circle intersects the extended baseline gives you the Golden Ratio rectangle. Very, very easy with simple geometric tools. It's also highly likely that the mathematics gave it an undeniable further "mystical" air.

And as with many things, once established, things can take on a life of their own. Painter X uses it because painter Y did - and well, why not? But some of the references have got very stretched. Dan Brown and the da Vinci Code may also have a lot to answer for - good escapist fiction, but DON'T take everything in it as true. :) (In particular, the Golden Ratio has little to do with the Vitruvian Man, contrary to popular belief.)
Point being -- there may indeed be things such as ratios, or frame rates, which we are preprogrammed to find more appealing, at an instinctual, genetic level.
I think the rule of thirds is actually a far better candidate, so don't think I disagree with the principle of what you say. And that seems to be the case regardless of aspect ratio. And surely the whole question of sound and music backs up the principle? Even non-musicians can tell when a note is played off-tune.

I'm not going to outright say that 24p definitely is one of those things, but I wouldn't be surprised if something like what David just linked to didn't end up being the truth, and it's along the lines of what Ebert has advanced as a theory over the years.
Something such as David linked to may give a clue to physiology (mechanics of how the brain can distinguish between frame rates) but much less the psychology (why one should be perceived as better than another). It still doesn't answer the question of if such as Edison had not had any cost/engineering constraints in the early days, what would they have settled on - if their only considerations were aesthetic? David says "a slower frame rate, not looking like reality, is by and large a more appropriate artistic canvas for fiction". Is that universally true though? I'd suggest that certainly in the first few decades of the cinema, the problem the pioneers had was they felt that their product didn't look real enough!

As far as that theory goes, then the quote says :
“Dr. Hameroff’s theory has to do with the synchrony of the gamma waves in the brain .......— the brain wave cycle of 40 hertz. .........
........most researchers agree we perceive 40 conscious moments per second. In other words: our eyes see more than that but we’re only aware of 40. So if a frame rate hits or exceeds 40 fps, it looks to us like reality. Whereas if it’s significantly below that, like 24 fps or even 30 fps, there’s a separation, there’s a difference — and we know immediately that what we’re watching is not real.”
It's an interesting theory, but a lot more research needs to be done. In particular, regarding how a relatively low framerate can give acceptable motion rendition, but totally unacceptable flicker. Hence the introduction of triple and double bladed shutters. How is the brain able to cope with 24 frames per second - but only when each is flashed at least twice? Maybe a good starting point would be to compare brain wave frequencies between countries where HFR is seen as "a good thing", and the opposite?

Gillvane - I do not, and have never, specified 24 fps to be "ugly".......... unless the rules on pan speed, motion etc that all cinematographers know are broken. Then it's the strobing and jerkiness that are unpleasant. Most of the time, with properly shot films - it's fine, and I'm perfectly happy with it. I don't consider it "ugly" or "beautiful" per se. Does that answer your question "What if it's 2d? Which one do you prefer then?"? It's when it's 3D, when the "rules" have to be tighter, or when you get really fast action in 2D (as with the opening sequence of that Bond film) that I find it unacceptably low.

One thing I hope David Jimerson WILL agree with me is that it's not the exact rate that is important, rather the approximate RANGE. It needs to be fast enough for the brain to perceive sensible motion - but go beyond a certain limit and the effect becomes more "real".
 
Something such as David linked to may give a clue to physiology (mechanics of how the brain can distinguish between frame rates) but much less the psychology (why one should be perceived as better than another).

harddrive, you keep talking about it in terms of saying 24p is "better." No one's saying it's better in all cases. No one's saying it's an intrinsically more "pleasing" frame rate in an absolute sense. What we're saying is that it fits fiction better, because of the unreality of it. HFR fits better for live events. For sports. And the like. Because it looks live. I'm not even sure how many times I've personally said that in this thread.

The research done seems to point toward what I said, at an innate level of the brain. It is not merely about "how" the brain perceives motion; it actually draws conclusions about the effect of those perceptions, psychologically. I quoted that part and put it in bold.


It still doesn't answer the question of if such as Edison had not had any cost/engineering constraints in the early days, what would they have settled on - if their only considerations were aesthetic?

It doesn't matter why it settled on it. I said that a long time ago in this thread. What matters is that it worked, and it stuck. Lots of things didn't stick. 24 fps did, and continues to, no matter how many people try to change it.


David says "a slower frame rate, not looking like reality, is by and large a more appropriate artistic canvas for fiction". Is that universally true though?

I do, and I stand by it, and the very wording I used says I'm not claiming it's "universally true," as in always true, as in all cases, which is why I said "by and large," not "absolutely so." I've put it that way every single time I've said it.


I'd suggest that certainly in the first few decades of the cinema, the problem the pioneers had was they felt that their product didn't look real enough!

Do you have any commentary from these pioneers -- Griffith, Melies, Chaplin, Murnau, Lang, etc. -- which would lead you to suggest this? You can't just pull that out of thin air. You need something to go on, or you're just making it up.


One thing I hope David Jimerson WILL agree with me is that it's not the exact rate that is important, rather the approximate RANGE. It needs to be fast enough for the brain to perceive sensible motion - but go beyond a certain limit and the effect becomes more "real".

One thing I've said about a zillion times in this thread is "a faster frame rate" (live-looking) and "a slower frame rate" (fictional-looking). I also said "24/25" a zillion times, and "50/60" a zillion times. I mentioned 30 as a slower frame rate a few times. So, I don't think that should be a matter of "hope"; it's already been confirmed several times over in explicit terms.

That said, 30 fps is not 24 fps. They are not interchangeable. They are similar, but they are not the same.

Anyway, harddrive, I've said everything I have to say multiple times, and for whatever reason, you keep claiming I said things I didn't, insinuating I didn't say things I did, and you seem to ignore anything that goes against what you're arguing, such as the psychological conclusions of the research I linked to. Disagreement is fine, but if we can't at least have a good-faith discussion, I just don't think this has anywhere fruitful left to go.

Everyone can come to their own conclusions, but I'm out. Have a good one.
 
I still much prefer 16:9 to 4:3 - but I'm much less sure about exactly how strict any Golden Ratio connection is

We like widescreen because we have two eyes, and they are side by side. So the composite is something like 2:1. If we had one eye on top of the other (gross!) we would prefer vertically oriented aspect ratios, like 9:16.

Since the brain overlaps the input of the two eyes to some degree, the resulting image is not exactly twice as wide as tall (2:1). 16:9 is close enough for me.
 
I've managed to read much of this thread but not all 22 pages so apologies if this has already been said...

For me the issue is one of tense. 50/60 fps strikes me as happening "now" and 24/25 fps looks like it's happening in the past. We tend to tell stories in the past tense - "Once upon a time there was...". Most novels are written in the past tense (though not always - some writers use the present tense to great effect, but it has a documentary "here and now" feel to the narrative, which I guess is precisely their aim).

Low frame rate (24/25), motion blur, grain (noise!), shallow depth of field etc are all techniques or artifacts that help to create the "fourth wall" so that we feel like we are looking through it into the past. It's not, in my opinion, so much that 50/60 fps is more real-looking (though it is!), but more that it feels like it's happening now - and it is the "now" that's particularly jarring in a narrative, story-telling context.
 
I've managed to read much of this thread but not all 22 pages so apologies if this has already been said...

For me the issue is one of tense. 50/60 fps strikes me as happening "now" and 24/25 fps looks like it's happening in the past. We tend to tell stories in the past tense - "Once upon a time there was...". Most novels are written in the past tense (though not always - some writers use the present tense to great effect, but it has a documentary "here and now" feel to the narrative, which I guess is precisely their aim).

Low frame rate (24/25), motion blur, grain (noise!), shallow depth of field etc are all techniques or artifacts that help to create the "fourth wall" so that we feel like we are looking through it into the past. It's not, in my opinion, so much that 50/60 fps is more real-looking (though it is!), but more that it feels like it's happening now - and it is the "now" that's particularly jarring in a narrative, story-telling context.


Totally agree. And for that reason 60 fps might very well suit a full on action movie or something that is meant to be jarring or particularly punchy. OTH, for that dream like feel of character films (like the Coen Bros), 24 is not going away any time soon.
 
Anyway, harddrive, I've said everything I have to say multiple times, and for whatever reason, you keep claiming I said things I didn't, insinuating I didn't say things I did, and you seem to ignore anything that goes against what you're arguing, such as the psychological conclusions of the research I linked to. Disagreement is fine, but if we can't at least have a good-faith discussion, I just don't think this has anywhere fruitful left to go.

Everyone can come to their own conclusions, but I'm out. Have a good one.
I'm very sorry you feel like that David, and it has not been my intention to have anything other than a good-faith discussion. I certainly have not ignored things you or others have said and if you feel I have been misrepresenting you then I can only apologise for any careless writing or confusion when trying to address points not originating from you.

I'll answer your direct questions, then I'm quite happy to drop the subject as well.
Do you have any commentary from these pioneers -- Griffith, Melies, Chaplin, Murnau, Lang, etc. -- which would lead you to suggest this? You can't just pull that out of thin air. You need something to go on, or you're just making it up.
What I said was: "the problem the pioneers had was they felt that their product didn't look real enough!" and when I wrote "pioneers" I was thinking of the earliest days, the first couple of decades - something like 1895-1915. Again, I can only apologise if my meaning was not clear. Of the people you quote, the only one who falls into that category I believe is Melies? And a flavour of what I was thinking of is given by his entry in Wikipedia:
They were able to construct a working camera using parts from Méliès's automata and special effect equipment. However raw film stock and film processing labs were not yet available in Paris, so Méliès had to purchase unperforated film in London and personally develop and print the films through trial and error.[2]

In September 1896 he, Korsten and Reulos patented the Kinètographe Robert-Houdin, an iron-cast camera-projector, which Méliès referred to as his "coffee grinder" and "machine gun" because of the noise that it made. By 1897 technology had caught up and better cameras were put on sale in Paris, leading Méliès to discard his own camera and purchase several better cameras made by Gaumont, Lumière, and Pathé

harddrive, you keep talking about it in terms of saying 24p is "better." No one's saying it's better in all cases. No one's saying it's an intrinsically more "pleasing" frame rate in an absolute sense. What we're saying is that it fits fiction better, because of the unreality of it. HFR fits better for live events. For sports. And the like. Because it looks live. I'm not even sure how many times I've personally said that in this thread.
Again, I can only apologise if I've been clumsy in my choice of words, but again, much of what I've written has been in response to others than yourself.

As regards "live" and "fiction", then I think Stephens answer below is interesting, and his use of "now" for HFR, and "in the past" for slower frame rates. I can see exactly where he is coming from. But since last visiting this forum, I've seen several high budget factual documentaries on British TV, the last only minutes ago. All non-fiction, and all at 25p. So there is still a question around "why"? The latter programme was intended to be highly topical - so why not use the "now" grammar? And as pulpfiction says, surely HFR can only benefit certain types of fiction?

It's perhaps a shame that in the cinema, high frame rate and "The Hobbit" have become so entwined. It would be interesting to see the process used for a completely different type of film, and maybe not just primarily with 3D in mind.
 
I've managed to read much of this thread but not all 22 pages so apologies if this has already been said...

For me the issue is one of tense. 50/60 fps strikes me as happening "now" and 24/25 fps looks like it's happening in the past. We tend to tell stories in the past tense - "Once upon a time there was...". Most novels are written in the past tense (though not always - some writers use the present tense to great effect, but it has a documentary "here and now" feel to the narrative, which I guess is precisely their aim).

Low frame rate (24/25), motion blur, grain (noise!), shallow depth of field etc are all techniques or artifacts that help to create the "fourth wall" so that we feel like we are looking through it into the past. It's not, in my opinion, so much that 50/60 fps is more real-looking (though it is!), but more that it feels like it's happening now - and it is the "now" that's particularly jarring in a narrative, story-telling context.

Loved this post. +100 to the upteenth power.
 
I've managed to read much of this thread but not all 22 pages so apologies if this has already been said...

For me the issue is one of tense. 50/60 fps strikes me as happening "now" and 24/25 fps looks like it's happening in the past. We tend to tell stories in the past tense - "Once upon a time there was...". Most novels are written in the past tense (though not always - some writers use the present tense to great effect, but it has a documentary "here and now" feel to the narrative, which I guess is precisely their aim).

Low frame rate (24/25), motion blur, grain (noise!), shallow depth of field etc are all techniques or artifacts that help to create the "fourth wall" so that we feel like we are looking through it into the past. It's not, in my opinion, so much that 50/60 fps is more real-looking (though it is!), but more that it feels like it's happening now - and it is the "now" that's particularly jarring in a narrative, story-telling context.

I'd agree, I think that the charm of 24p is the suspension of disbelief it gives you. There's a lot of unrealistic stuff happening in a movie, most of the time, and the fact that you can separate it from reality like that helps you not question it.

Though, in my opinion the Hobbit suffered more from story problems than choosing to be in 48fps. If someone came out with a brilliant 48fps film maybe it'd work.
 
As regards "live" and "fiction", then I think Stephens answer below is interesting, and his use of "now" for HFR, and "in the past" for slower frame rates. I can see exactly where he is coming from. But since last visiting this forum, I've seen several high budget factual documentaries on British TV, the last only minutes ago. All non-fiction, and all at 25p. So there is still a question around "why"? The latter programme was intended to be highly topical - so why not use the "now" grammar? And as pulpfiction says, surely HFR can only benefit certain types of fiction?

It's perhaps a shame that in the cinema, high frame rate and "The Hobbit" have become so entwined. It would be interesting to see the process used for a completely different type of film, and maybe not just primarily with 3D in mind.

Which documentary was it? Being UK based I might have watched it myself, then I'd be better able to comment, so what follows doesn't refer to what you saw, just a general observation...

Although it's true I was thinking generally about fiction, I didn't actually specify it. Good documentaries tell stories too. It's perfectly possible to tell a story in the past tense about something that's happening now, if you want to. In other words it's the story-telling that's in the past, not the story itself. It's an important distinction and easy to confuse the two. Philip K Dick tells The Minority Report (set in the future of course) in the past tense, Hilary Mantel tells Wolf Hall (set five hundred years ago) in the present tense.

But I agree it's complicated! Boundaries are often blurred and I certainly wasn't advocating any kind of rule. It's just my own personal emotional reaction to what I see on the screen, and generally speaking 24/25 fps is one of the things that tends to push things into the past. For me. :smile:
 
"The Truth About Immigration", presented by Nick Robinson, 9.30pm, BBC2 was the one last night, but it's only one example.
I did see it as it happens. Yes it is the way most documentaries are shot these days. I could argue that it looks as if he's speaking from the past, as opposed to "Nick Robinson live from 10 Downing Street". He was, at least in part, telling the story of immigration, going back to the 50's. But it does blur the boundaries of tense, certainly.
 
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