HMC80 Please Help

L

LanceLewis

Member
I just got my HMC80 and had a chance to shoot our Church Service with it this morning. I am certainly hoping that I am doing something wrong because although I had a decent image, the pastor stands on a stage and is very well lit. Even given the brightness of the stage lights on him, the camera was coming in around 14db gain for proper exposure. I was shooting at 1080/60i in the PH mode. DRS was turned on to 3 (this shouldn't matter though). I would like to note that I have shot in this exact same lighting situation every Sunday using a sony VX2000 and usually come in at F4 or F4.8. While I don't expect two different cameras two perform the same should there really be THIS much difference. I am hoping that I am just missing something here. I did check to see if the camera had a ND filter attached to the lens...but it did not. The shutter speed was set to 60. Turning it to 30 definetly let more light in, but also produced undesirable results in regards to motion.

Can anyone help me identify what might be going on here...I find it really hard to believe that there can be this much difference. Any help is appreciated.
 
Drs would definitely give a lot of ugly noise
And yes hmc80 would lose to a vx2000 handsdown.
I think hmc80's base iso is 60 while the vx is 400 (or more?)
 
Last edited:
The HMC80 (and HMC40, which share the same lens, prisms and sensors) are not low-light champs -- but one consolation is that the electronic gain is very clean, and definitely usable out to at least +12 dB or so without degrading the image very much. I would definitely advise against using DRS above level 1 and, if possible, do not turn it on at all. The +3 setting is very noisy.

I don't know how you distribute your videos, but you might want to consider shooting at 1080p30 or 1080p24 instead of the interlaced format. If your program is intended for over-the-air broadcast TV it might be necessary to use interlace, but in almost all other settings, especially web distribution, progressive scan looks better. You might also gain some sensitivity by being able to decrease the shutter speed in these formats without running into quite as much degradation of the motion rendering.

If you can get access to a light meter that reads in footcandles, try to take an incident light measurement of the stage where the pastor stands. Although it may appear bright to your eyes especially because it is well lit in contrast to the rest of the sanctuary, sometimes the actual physical light levels are lower than you might imagine. This is often true, for example, when shooting theatrical and musical performances. My general rule of thumb is that the HMC80 needs about 100 fc (1000 lux) for a really satisfactory exposure without engaging too much gain. That is about the typical level of lighting in a modern office with banks of fluorescent lights overhead. Is adding more light a possibility? Bigger bulbs, more fixtures, maybe changing from incandescent to HMI or CDM lights, something like that? It's kind of a perverse effect, but owning the HMC80 has caused me to upgrade my lighting kit and learn more about new lighting technology (LED, fluorescent, HMI lights) than anything else I've done in the last 30 years or so.

The bottom line is that I feel your pain and, indeed, the HMC80 will probably require more light than older SD cameras you're used to. I've had the same experience comparing mine to the two JVC DV5000s I own, which do quite well in "available darkness." It distresses me to say so (because in other respects I really like and enjoy using this camera), but it might turn out to just not be the right equipment for this particular application. Unfortunately, I don't know of any other camera at less than about three times the price of the HMC80 that is both more sensitive and matches its features and performance in other respects.

- Greg
 
What Greg said. Read it twice.

Lance, not to be snarky, but did you research the cam before purchase? The low light capability of the HMC80 - 40 are pretty well known. Possibly a HMC-150 would have been a better choice, form factor aside. Having said that, if you feed it some light, you will have a big smile which you can't get rid of.

The ND system on the cam is tied directly to the iris. As you stop down, ND is "automatically" applied. It is a bit strange, but it works ok.

Besides avoiding interlaced and DRS, do some research on scene files. A good scene file won't directly effect exposure, but it will clean up the image which might be contributing to your poor results. Avoiding DRS is a good example. It is somewhat common for a new HMC owner to be initially disappointed with a cam that has so many ways to tweek the image. After a bit of experience, that usually changes.

Grant
 
Wow

Wow

ggrantly: yes I did my research before buying this camera, and all reports say that the low light is not great. Most reports state that it is better than what they thought it would be. Not to be snarky, but did you even read my post? I said that the picture looked decent (even at 14db gain). The only thing I was asking about was exposure levels and the HUGE amount of difference (I expected a difference, but not 10 Fstops). In fact all three responses here have commented on picture quality, which I wasn't asking about. Ggrantly, again, don't mean to be snarky here (er...yes I do), please read someone's post twice before you comment on it)

Greg: Thank you for the lengthy response. Although I did not use a light meter, I can tell you that the amount of light is enough for the VX2000 to expose at an Fstop of around 4.0 or 4.8. That's pretty substantial amount of light as this camera closes at F12. The HMC80 needed to be at 14db gain. That is a very large difference. I would like to know if this is normal or if perhaps there is something wrong with the unit (or the way I am using it).
 
I agree that it does sound like a rather extreme difference compared to your VX2000 (a camera I've seen, but have never used, so I can't comment on its performance). It's going to be tricky figuring out if your HMC80 is misbehaving without having an identical known-good camera to compare it to, but as a very rough test, with the HMC80 you should be able to get a decent exposure at +12 dB gain in a modern, well-lit office or classroom that has fluorescent lights in the ceiling. I shoot in that kind of environment all the time (I work in a school) and can get by without adding supplemental light if necessary. (I do use an on-camera LED light, dimmed down quite a bit, to fill in shadows sometimes).

Is there any chance you might have been shooting in manual iris mode with the lens closed down from fully open? Either that, or an aperture that's physically stuck in a partially-closed state, are about the only two possibilities I can think of that would make the camera less sensitive without affecting quality in other ways. Taking it outside and seeing if it overexposes might reveal a stuck iris situation.

Kinda grasping at straws, I know.

- Greg
 
Lance,

Your complaints are common. Search is your friend. I wouldn't know about the sensitivity of your VX2000 but the HMC40 - 80 has an ASA of 50-60. The HMC-150 is up in the ASA 400 zone. Given that you are shooting interlaced and with DRS on a cam that doesn't like to do either, you may want to read my post twice and do some testing before commenting.

Peace
Grant
 
Thanks

Thanks

Greg: Thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree, I think I need to get another unit and test them out side by side to see if there is a problem with my unit. I have shot outside footage and am able to close the iris for proper exposure.

Anyone using this unit indoors for live events such as weddings or dance recitals (this camera is actually marketted with live events such as weddings in mind...as posted on their brochure). I find it hard to believe that a company would market a camera's usage to a market that it couldn't possibly shoot in without engaging substantial gain (which is why I think that I might be doing something wrong here). Case in point, my current cameras shoot dance recitals with Fstops coming in around 4.0 to 8.0. The HMC80 had to be gained to 14db gain to expose for the same lighthing situation that my other camera would have shot at F4.0.

For those of you that are inclined to think that I am bashing this camera, please understand that I am not. I am simply trying to understand if I have a damaged unit or using it improperly. So far, based on the responses, it appears that I am being told that even under substantial light this camera will need to use gain. That's fine if that's the case, but sense it seems contrary to common sense, I figured something was wrong with the way that I am using it and/or the unit itself.
 
What you will find is the gain on this cam is pretty clean up to around +12. In order to get that +12 to look good, you need to tweek your scene files. All of the Panny cams have extensive ability to adjust the image, which will be quite different than a basic interlaced handycam like the VX2000. In addition, shooting HD requires more attention to detail. I made this transition about 18 mos ago and found I had to improve my skills. You may already have those skills, but you made little mention of your experience.

I understand that your question was specifically about exposure, and no doubt you need enough light. Have you used the WFM to help you with exposure? If you expect this cam to perform under any circumstances, and it will punch well above its weight, you need to look at the larger issue of setting the cam up to perform, not just at exposure.

One other question that always needs to be asked when you aren't satisfied with the cam output: How are you viewing your footage?

Did you get the Barry Green book with your cam? It is a great resource and will be invaluable as you learn your cam.
On the Panny Pro Website, there is a good white paper about shooting AVCHD.

You might read these comments and think they are off topic, but they aren't.

Grant
 
I shoot with a VX-2100 at my church every Sunday. I have relied on this cam for years to provide a nice picture for the weekly message in typically low lighting like most would find in a church. When I purchased my HMC-80 and sat it side by side with the Sony to film a Sunday message, I was initially surprised at how far I had to open the iris to get the same level of picture as the Sony. Like you, I run my 2100 at F4 to get the best picture for editing. I played with the 80 and found I needed about 14-18db gain to match the Sony. The amazing thing is when I went to edit the Pani footage after down converting from 720/60i to 480 for DVD, the footage was not noisy and really sharp. This is the compromise one makes in using a cam with small sensors. I love the picture this HMC80 kicks out with just a little extra light and learning how to adapt using the settings. As others have said, make sure you get Barry Green's HMC book, if you don't already have it. It's been a great help.

-Steve
 
Steve: Thank you for posting, this was exactly the information I was looking for. I too was amazed at having to open the iris to 14db to match what my VX2000 was doing at F4 and was worried that perhaps there was something wrong with the unit or perhaps I was missing something in regards to settings. The image looks great even at the level of gain, I never had qualms about that...AND I haven't played with any of the other settings yet. I am a bit disappointed though, as it seems that this camera is not designed to handle many "normal" shooting scenarios without extra light added. On the brochure for the camera they have a picture of a couple getting married (as well as other pictures). I can't imagine what a disaster it would be to be in a church setting where I have found that my Sony VX2000s needed to have it's iris open or even a few steps of gain. The concept of "adding" light during a wedding ceremony is absolutely out of the question (during the reception...sure, ceremony...no). Thanks again for the response, it was very helpful for me to move on knowing that someone else is experiencing something very similar to what I have seen.

Felipe: The majority of shooting that I do is Live Events. The majority of it is stage productions and concerts (in the last 10 years we have live mixed approximately 500 concerts). We also do a lot of dance recitals and well as church services. While adding lights in a shoot for a commercial, deposition, indy film, or corporate video is a viable solution, it is not for the types of productions that I shoot. I knew the camera was bad in low light...that is well documented, I just didn't realize that is has to be in a high gain setting for normal stage lighting (which is NOT low light at all). The good news is, the majority of our dance recitals come in around F5.6 or 6.8 (with some at F8) on my Vx2000s, so I am excited to see what the picture looks like for those. Unfortunately, the bad news is, almost every dance recital has at least one number where the lights are considerably lower causing us to gain up on the Sony's....and my guess is that the HMC80 won't be able to handle that at all...even at 24db gain, but I will reserve judgement on that until I can put it to the test. We have a recital coming up that I can attend the rehearsal for and do some comparisons.

Thanks for the responses.
 
Just wanted to provide an update here. Yesterday I shot a small part of our service with both my VX2000 and my HMC80. Again the 80 was set to 14db gain and the VX2000 to F4. This provided what I would consider good exposure on each camera. Although I was in a high gain setting (14db) on the HMC80 the picture contained no noticable gain (even watching it on a 32 inch LCD HDTV). And now for the good news, the very good news: When comparing the two cameras side by side...the amount of exposure going to the rest of the scene was noticably better on the HMC80 then on the VX2000 (DRS was set to 0 for HMC80, which suprised me quite a bit). Let me explain. The stage is lit by a row of parcans, the audience is lit quite a bit darker (several Fstops as measures on my VX2000). The HMC80 closed the gap considerably. I can imagine this would be problematic for others, but for me, this is perfect. I can't quite get my head around why this is so, but I'm glad it is as I often find myself in scenarios that involve a large degree of light variance within a shot.
 
This mirrors my observations. The HMC80 has a very low-noise imaging system with a very wide dynamic range. It can pull detail out of shadow areas like nobody's business -- making it really difficult, in fact, to achieve some of the "limbo lighting" effects I tend to light for when I do interviews and so forth. Although its basic sensitivity is, to put it bluntly, pretty poor, in many other respects (including sharpness) the image is just hard to criticize for a camera in this price range. I find it works better in many situations than the specs would lead you to believe it could. The whole lens/iris/sensor/gain/ND filter setup is quite unconventional and takes some getting used to for someone who has used more traditional ENG-type cameras for many years -- but it mostly just works. Several times I've found that if I just trust the camera to do its thing, it will reward me with a surprisingly sharp and clean image.

I've taken to using the B.press gamma setting most of the time, and I even drop the master pedestal a notch or two sometimes just to suppress low-light detail when I don't actually want it. But it's good to know that the dynamic range is there when I need it.

- Greg
 
LanceLewis said:
Just wanted to provide an update here. Yesterday I shot a small part of our service with both my VX2000 and my HMC80. Again the 80 was set to 14db gain and the VX2000 to F4. This provided what I would consider good exposure on each camera. Although I was in a high gain setting (14db) on the HMC80 the picture contained no noticable gain (even watching it on a 32 inch LCD HDTV). And now for the good news, the very good news: When comparing the two cameras side by side...the amount of exposure going to the rest of the scene was noticably better on the HMC80 then on the VX2000 (DRS was set to 0 for HMC80, which suprised me quite a bit). Let me explain. The stage is lit by a row of parcans, the audience is lit quite a bit darker (several Fstops as measures on my VX2000). The HMC80 closed the gap considerably. I can imagine this would be problematic for others, but for me, this is perfect. I can't quite get my head around why this is so, but I'm glad it is as I often find myself in scenarios that involve a large degree of light variance within a shot.
Click to expand...

Lance,

I left this thread alone for a while in hopes you would begin to see how good this cam really is. I use a HMC40 for a B-Cam and it has the same sensor and lens as your 80, so it is more or less the same cam in a different box. While you may be on the edge of the range of the cam, I would suggest you begin working with scene files which will make a huge difference in your look. If you look at the graphs for the different gammas, you will see how this can help you. Graphs of how the gamma curves are in the Barry Green book and also the Panasonic AVCHD white paper. Felipe likes the cine gamma settings, and they do look good, but I believe they introduce more noise. For higher gain settings, and actually a good all around gamma setting is B.Press. Try using this with detail coring of up to +3. B.Press has a bit more contrast and dynamic range than the other curves. Combined with the increased detail coring, noise will be suppresed by crushing the blacks somewhat as you increase gain. This will work much better than the dreaded DRS settings. And you hadn't mentioned it, but hopefully you have made the switch to progressive shooting.

Grant
 
Gain Control

Gain Control

If you check the menu you will have an option to lock your gain to a max of 12+ when in auto mode, there is only two options 12 and 24 and panasonic have it preset to 24. I do wish that they gave us more preset options such as 0, and 6 in addition. Your other option is to run the camera in manual mode, this way you can decide the gain for yourself, specialy if it's not a run and gun shoot.
I just shot a wedding that took place outdoors at night, this lake setting had two decks with the dancing being on the lower deck, this enabled me to use a 500w lowel DP shooting down on my subjects which acted as my key light and with a 20w on camera light acting as my fill I was able to capture very nice crisp images. On the other hand I did some interviews with only the 20w on the upper deck, the subjects looked nice, however the black background was pixalized, I was runing auto mode and my gain was at the 12 max I locked it in. When I got back I couldn't realy do much color correction and grading as the image deteriorated fast.

Overall I am very happy with the sharpness of the image when lit right. For the price you can not beat the features.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top