HMC40 vs. FX7 vs. GL2?

[raven13mb]

Hello all... first post. Hope it's appropriate to start off with this type of query! I'm a professional videographer... primarily do weddings. I've used the Canon GL2 in my 8 years in business. I get great results with the camera but am ready to make the jump to the HD realm. I've narrowed my search down to two cameras... the HMC40 (of course) and the Sony FX7. I'm stuck between the two because they both have their plusses and minuses. The Sony is very familiar in size and style to the GL2. LOVE the zoom functions on the handle... something I utilize quite a bit. But, the HMC40's compact size would work well with the handheld steadycam for some interesting shots, shoots in the different formats including 24p, and the biggest interest, flash card recording.

If anybody could answer some questions for me, it would really help with my decisions.

1. Can the zoom controls on the HMC40 be set to different settings? IE- My GL2 allows the zoom controls to be set to several different zoom speeds, from 'really' slow through to 'really' fast. Can this be accomplished with the HMC40 with the grip zoom AND the screen zoom?

2. How would the widest zoom angle on the HMC40 compare to the same wide zoom on the GL2? It would be imperative to have a similar range of field covered with the HMC40.

3. I saw the manual for the HMC40 and it says that for mac only Intel based computers could be used for NLE. Is this really true? Can't you just transfer the video files over to say an Intel based mac (I have two Intel iMacs) in FCP, then save the capture files to an external firewire and then transfer them to a G5 running FCP for edit (I also have two G5's).

4. Regardless of #3 above, how is the transition from DV tape to this new format? What is the footage saved as in FCP? DV stream? MPEG? MOV? A big part of my editing routine is to locate the DV- Start/Stop points on DV tape footage imported into FCP. Does the files the HMC40 would provide allow those same start/stop points to be found for easier editing?

5. How would the on-board camera mic on the HMC40 compare to the on-board mic on the GL2? In some shooting situations, I'm happy with the on-board mic on the GL2 and would hope for the same in my new camera.

6. And finally, how reliable is this new format? Doing mostly weddings, I'd dread having a card malfunction and losing a client's "I do's". Any other folks using the HMC40 for weddings? Can the tapeless format be trusted?

-In a nut shell, if I were to invest in the HMC40 as my replacement for the GL2 (would be getting 4 cameras), I know I'd have to invest at least an additional $240 for the 32GB cards, per camera, with a couple back-up cards. But that roughly $1500 investment would pay for itself in a couple of years w/o having to buy DV tapes anymore.

-If I knew the zoom's on the HMC40 can be set to one speed (primarily super slow for nice fluid zooms), especially the grip zoom, that would be a huge plus.

-If the widest angle on the HMC40 is not similar to that of the GL2, I'd be forced to get wide angle lenses (another $1000 for all four cameras).

-Finally, and probably my biggest concern, is being able to edit "as usual" in FCP w/o any issues. If that's possible after saving the files to a scratch disk, I'd be a SUPER HAPPY CAMPER!

However, if I find I need wide-angle lenses for all four cameras I need, the grip zoom on the HMC40 can't be set to one nice super slow zoom speed (not variable), and the editing in FCP can be problematic depending on the system set-up, I'd probably be better suited with the FX7 for now. The zoom speed is a huge factor as I 'shoot-from-the-hip' a lot and it's not easy to control the variable zoom that way.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Barry_Green]

1) The zoom rocker is variable speed, the LCD panel zoom buttons are at a fixed speed, about medium speed. I don't think there's a way to change that.

2) The HMC40 should be about 5% wider than the GL2, since they're both 1/4" chips and the HMC40 is a 4.0mm lens, the GL2 a 4.2mm lens.

3) Yes you could certainly do that.

4) On the memory cards they're H.264 .MTS files. FCP converts them to Quicktime MOV files. Every file that you record is stored as its own file, so you don't have to locate start/stop points, they're inherent in the files.

5) No idea; all onboard mics are horrible by virtue of them being on-board, but ... well, you'd have to try it for yourself to see if you think it's acceptable.

6) In a perfect world it'd be ideally ultimately reliable. In the real world you kind of get what you pay for; if you get some no-name import SD card from China, it may not perform as reliably as a top-brand like Lexar or SanDisk. In four years of tapeless shooting (mostly to P2) I've never lost so much as a single frame, but we have had reports of people's SD cards failing.

As for the zoom speed, you can get an external zoom controller that could probably do exactly what you want. I don't know of one, there are many on the market, but there is probably one out there that can be set to micro-creep zoom speed at a fixed rate.

For weddings, be aware that the cameras you're considering (FX7 and HMC40) have relatively dismal low light performance. Not sure how they compare to the GL2.

 

[Camera Expert]

As a GL2 replacement, I’d say the FX7 is more similar because of the tape and the 20x zoom but personally I’d go with the HMC40. Unlike the FX7 you are able to hook up XLR mics natively into the camera, theirs multiple video modes including fully native 1920x1080 24p, 1280x720 60p, 1280x720 24p etc. On top of all that I’d expect the HMC40 to be much, much sharper. With the price Panasonic is selling it for, you cannot go wrong.


Me writing this post is reminding me how much I want that camcorder.

 

[raven13mb]

Thanks for the replies Barry and Camera Expert! Thanks in retrospect too, Barry, because I read through a lot of your analysis on the 40 and it was very helpful before I posted... probably cut out about 20 other questions!

Anyway, I'm so stuck between the FX and the 40. And yes, I agree Camera Expert, the additional settings on the 40 are a huge plus. But, the familiarity the FX offers with it being so similar to the GL2 in size, the 20x, tapes, zoom functions, etc, will not only make it a smooth transition for me but for my crew of 4 or 5 other videographers. If it were just me, I'd jump on the 40 (not to say I'm not going to do that anyway.

So I'm still debating. I've seen footage from both cameras in normal lighting conditions and low light and they're practically the same. Both are a huge step up from the GL2 DV anyway, so to me that's a non-factor. And yes, the GL2 doesn't fare much better in low light. But with proper on camera lighting (I use the Sony dual 10/20 watt light) and knowing how to set the gain and what not, that's also a non-issue. The on camera light alone will make any low-light performance null-and-void, for me.

Finally, for weddings, I always use a RODE shotgun mic in conjunction with wireless mics during the ceremony and toasts during the reception. The rest of the time I just use the on-board mic for random dancing and what not. Never had a problem with doing it that way so as long as the on board mic on the 40 is acceptable (in my book), that would put me a step closer to pulling the trigger on it. Anyone with more experiences with the on-board mic (especially someone who has used the GL2 in the past for a comparison), please chime in!

Finally, the only thing holding me back right now is the zoom capabilities. If this puppy had the same kind of programmable zoom on the handle like the GL2 and the FX, my Mastercard balance would be going up right now. So I'm exploring some options to work around this... like buying a remote zoom that's small enough for me to actually velcro to the camera beneath the handle or even on it. I'll need to buy one anyway for use as a tripod remote (an additional expense as my Canon wired remote will work with Sony cameras, too... but an expense I'd be able to live with knowing I won't have to buy wide angle lenses for the 40).

I found this remote on B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...d.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=361366&is=REG#features

Anybody have experiences with this remote? Looks like something I could rig to the camera if I had to using velcro. Main thing here is... can the zoom control be set to only operate at slower or faster zooms, whatever the situation calls for. The Canon remote allow you to pick a setting between 1 and 6... one being slowest (nice slow zoom) and 6 being fastest.

I know it sounds nit-picky, but our style of shooting calls for a zoom to be on or around the handle with this capability. When we 'shoot from the hip', it makes a world of difference!

Thanks again for the feedback... and in advance for more insight

 

[Cranky]

As a GL2 replacement the HMC150 is the closest from the Panasonic lineup.

 

[ravencr]

Hello all... first post. Hope it's appropriate to start off with this type of query! I'm a professional videographer... primarily do weddings. I've used the Canon GL2 in my 8 years in business. I get great results with the camera but am ready to make the jump to the HD realm. I've narrowed my search down to two cameras... the HMC40 (of course) and the Sony FX7. I'm stuck between the two because they both have their plusses and minuses. The Sony is very familiar in size and style to the GL2. LOVE the zoom functions on the handle... something I utilize quite a bit. But, the HMC40's compact size would work well with the handheld steadycam for some interesting shots, shoots in the different formats including 24p, and the biggest interest, flash card recording.

If anybody could answer some questions for me, it would really help with my decisions.

1. Can the zoom controls on the HMC40 be set to different settings? IE- My GL2 allows the zoom controls to be set to several different zoom speeds, from 'really' slow through to 'really' fast. Can this be accomplished with the HMC40 with the grip zoom AND the screen zoom?

The rocker is variable and easy to be steady with, and if you want a fixed zoom then the bottom of the touch screen allows for that.

2. How would the widest zoom angle on the HMC40 compare to the same wide zoom on the GL2? It would be imperative to have a similar range of field covered with the HMC40.

Not sure, but I have the Pany wide angle lens, and I really like it. I shot for an entire 2 weeks and never took it off.

3. I saw the manual for the HMC40 and it says that for mac only Intel based computers could be used for NLE. Is this really true? Can't you just transfer the video files over to say an Intel based mac (I have two Intel iMacs) in FCP, then save the capture files to an external firewire and then transfer them to a G5 running FCP for edit (I also have two G5's).

4. Regardless of #3 above, how is the transition from DV tape to this new format? What is the footage saved as in FCP? DV stream? MPEG? MOV? A big part of my editing routine is to locate the DV- Start/Stop points on DV tape footage imported into FCP. Does the files the HMC40 would provide allow those same start/stop points to be found for easier editing?

It just copies over the .mts files and you can edit them in Premier CS4 no problem, plus imovie, or FCP, but I believe FCP and imovie convert them to .mov's.

5. How would the on-board camera mic on the HMC40 compare to the on-board mic on the GL2? In some shooting situations, I'm happy with the on-board mic on the GL2 and would hope for the same in my new camera.

I have no idea...the on-board mic on the camera in quiet situations picks up the sound of the zoom controls, so I always use my rode videomic with dead cat and it sounds great.

6. And finally, how reliable is this new format? Doing mostly weddings, I'd dread having a card malfunction and losing a client's "I do's". Any other folks using the HMC40 for weddings? Can the tapeless format be trusted?

I think it's more reliable than tape any day of the week. It's like a solid stat drive is way more reliable than a regular hard drive, but I always recommend double backups of anything important.

-In a nut shell, if I were to invest in the HMC40 as my replacement for the GL2 (would be getting 4 cameras), I know I'd have to invest at least an additional $240 for the 32GB cards, per camera, with a couple back-up cards. But that roughly $1500 investment would pay for itself in a couple of years w/o having to buy DV tapes anymore.

-If I knew the zoom's on the HMC40 can be set to one speed (primarily super slow for nice fluid zooms), especially the grip zoom, that would be a huge plus.

I don't think you can, but I seriously think you'd get used to the zoom control and be able to make it zoom nice and slow without any problems.

-If the widest angle on the HMC40 is not similar to that of the GL2, I'd be forced to get wide angle lenses (another $1000 for all four cameras).

For weddings, I'd buy the Pany wide angle lens for the HMC40 without a doubt.

-Finally, and probably my biggest concern, is being able to edit "as usual" in FCP w/o any issues. If that's possible after saving the files to a scratch disk, I'd be a SUPER HAPPY CAMPER!

Yep, no problems there.

However, if I find I need wide-angle lenses for all four cameras I need, the grip zoom on the HMC40 can't be set to one nice super slow zoom speed (not variable), and the editing in FCP can be problematic depending on the system set-up, I'd probably be better suited with the FX7 for now. The zoom speed is a huge factor as I 'shoot-from-the-hip' a lot and it's not easy to control the variable zoom that way.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

I think the bigger concern is low light performance. My recommendation would be to get a HMC150 or another camera with 1/3" chips instead of the 1/4, because low light performance isn't great with this camera.

Chris

 

[matt s.]

I personally wouldnt shoot on 32GB cards myself. Why take the risk of losing all of that data? 16GB gives you 90 minutes and it literally takes under 10 seconds to swap cards and start shooting again.
But I personally like to shoot with 8GB cards as they are easier to back up to dual layer DVD if needed and much less risk of losing hours of footage that would be held on one card.
$240 for a 32GB card is really high too. I'm guessing thats for the Panny card? I shot an entire feature length this summer with 5 Transcend 8GB cards and not one single issue. Third part brand 32GB cards can be had for much less than $240 and have read of several issues with thePanny cards here on the boards.