HMC150 CineGamma vs Sony's CinemaTone

[Jim Hauschultz]

I'm going to order a 150 or the HXR-NX5U tomorrow. The actual ship time (pre-order) will make my decision for me. I've got a doc starting later this in Feb. So I love the parallel SDHC/backup drive of the Sony. But...I happen to like Panasonic's Cine look. A lot. It's almost a dealbreaker if Sony can't do as well. Since no one really knows how the new Sony will look, does anyone have any guesses? Thanks.

 

[Galleddrim]

I am also deciding between these two, and would be interested to know what people think. Leaning toward the NX5U because of the simultaneous recording as well. I will be shooting weddings, where there are no chances for getting a retake.

I wouldn't think the image processing would change for the NX5U from their HDV cams all that much. Maybe some people who have used Sony's HDVs and Panny's HMC150 could weigh in.

Also, I understand that in the Panny you can manually adjust noise reduction, whereas in the Sony system you can't. How much does this actually affect the final product?

 

[studio1972]

I am also deciding between these two, and would be interested to know what people think. Leaning toward the NX5U because of the simultaneous recording as well. I will be shooting weddings, where there are no chances for getting a retake.

I wouldn't think the image processing would change for the NX5U from their HDV cams all that much. Maybe some people who have used Sony's HDVs and Panny's HMC150 could weigh in.

Also, I understand that in the Panny you can manually adjust noise reduction, whereas in the Sony system you can't. How much does this actually affect the final product?

For weddings I would recommend the HMC as it doesn't have the rolling shutter problems the sony cam has.

 

[Galleddrim]

For weddings I would recommend the HMC as it doesn't have the rolling shutter problems the sony cam has.

Yeah, I shoot HV30 right now, so I know all about rolling shutter. I can live with the occasional half-frame flash. Most people don't even notice. I can't live with losing an hour and a half of footage due to a freak SDHC card failure. I am not thrilled with the HMC150 solution of "just cross your fingers."

 

[studio1972]

Yeah, I shoot HV30 right now, so I know all about rolling shutter. I can live with the occasional half-frame flash. Most people don't even notice. I can't live with losing an hour and a half of footage due to a freak SDHC card failure. I am not thrilled with the HMC150 solution of "just cross your fingers."

Well, I've filmed about 30 weddings since I got mine with no problems at all. I also use a SD100 which shares the same cards, no problems there either. I used to have way more problems with tapes. Not saying the dual recording on the NX wouldn't be nice, but I think the banding is a bigger issue TBH, I get it on my SD100 and it looks bad to me.

 

[Xian Messerschmidt]

Yeah, I shoot HV30 right now, so I know all about rolling shutter. I can live with the occasional half-frame flash. Most people don't even notice. I can't live with losing an hour and a half of footage due to a freak SDHC card failure. I am not thrilled with the HMC150 solution of "just cross your fingers."

Stick with your HV30 if you're so paranoid. In case you hadn't noticed, this is 2010 and pretty much all camera manufacturers have moved to solid state. The majority of people using these cameras, including the HMC150, have no problems with card failure so long as they use good cards and follow the manufacturer's instructions. You don't have to "cross your fingers" any more than you would with a tape.

 

[Galleddrim]

Stick with your HV30 if you're so paranoid. In case you hadn't noticed, this is 2010 and pretty much all camera manufacturers have moved to solid state. The majority of people using these cameras, including the HMC150, have no problems with card failure so long as they use good cards and follow the manufacturer's instructions. You don't have to "cross your fingers" any more than you would with a tape.

Um . . . no, I prefer to use professional equipment. One that will record to two forms of media at once would be nice. Oh, look! Sony makes one. Maybe I'll go with that.

Look, I was ready to go with HMC150 just a few weeks ago. I was willing to take the risk because I didn't think I had much of a choice if I wanted solid state. But now I do. In case you hadn't noticed, this is 2010. Redundancy is an option. Sony just looks like a better option for reasons of security. And it gives better clarity to boot. I'll deal with the rolling shutter. Plenty of professionals do.

With tape you could lose a great shot if something gets messed up. With a failed card, you could lose the whole shoot.

 

[MTS]

I used hmc 150 in more than 50 weddings and events since I bought it jan last year and never had any problem with cards. Yes its good to have back up but having two camera setup all the time is I think a safe solution besides of getting more angles.

 

[Galleddrim]

I used hmc 150 in more than 50 weddings and events since I bought it jan last year and never had any problem with cards. Yes its good to have back up but having two camera setup all the time is I think a safe solution besides of getting more angles.

True, that. It's not just the redundancy that's making me seriously consider the NX5U. There are a lot of other attractive features. But probably the redundancy is near the top of the list. I would love to shoot a two camera system. Just can't afford it at this point. If I go with Sony now, then maybe when I can I'll take another look at HMC150. It sure looks like a great camera. Although, I'm sort of looking forward to adding a Scarlet to my arsenal at some point . . .

 

[Robert M Wright]

If I was going to be shooting events professionally, I'd look at the elegant and simple redundant recording ability of the NX5U as a MAJOR plus (certainly not something to just thumb your nose at). Sure, you'll probably shoot well over a hundred events before ever having a mishap, but just one big mishap (like especially a whole 32GB card failure) could be a really messy egg in the face for that kind of work.

 

[studio1972]

True, that. It's not just the redundancy that's making me seriously consider the NX5U. There are a lot of other attractive features. But probably the redundancy is near the top of the list. I would love to shoot a two camera system. Just can't afford it at this point. If I go with Sony now, then maybe when I can I'll take another look at HMC150. It sure looks like a great camera. Although, I'm sort of looking forward to adding a Scarlet to my arsenal at some point . . .

For the price of the NX5 couldn't you get a 150 plus a consumer camcorder to use as your second camera. This is what many people do, myself included. My SD100 is setup on a tripod for the ceremony, speeches and first dance and if I had a major problem with the main camera I can cut to that. Even if a NX5 has 2 memory cards, it doesn't stop some idiot bumping into you, standing in front of you, knocking your tripod over, or your battery or memory card running out at a crucial moment, All these things are much more likely than a memory card failure.

Sure, a consumer camera isn't as good as a second 150, but it's a lot better than nothing and it's compact and easy to fit into my kit bag, and runs for ages on a small battery.

 

[Exact]

I'm hoping that if you are buying this for weddings you are buying more than one camera!

I can't imaging shooting a wedding with a single camera and coming away with anything half decent unless you can manage to stage everything and do retakes! Even then there is no way to synchronize multiple angles.

[not directed at you specifically - but rather people who think weddings can be done with one camera]
What do you cut to while you are moving your main camera?
What do you cut to while you zoom-in (please don't tell me you leave the zoom in the footage!) What do you have as backup footage when 'this' camera is out of focus (for what ever reason - it happens) ?
What do you have as your backup audio recording?
How do you get the bride arriving while still having footage of the groom?
What do you do when you can't get the shot because the photographer walked in front of your 'money shot' camera? It happens more often than you would think!

I typically shoot ceremonies with 3xHMC and the reception with either 2 or 3 HMCs. Occasionally I find myself wishing for a 4th, so I can't imagine having just one!

 

[MTS]

I'm hoping that if you are buying this for weddings you are buying more than one camera!

I can't imaging shooting a wedding with a single camera and coming away with anything half decent unless you can manage to stage everything and do retakes! Even then there is no way to synchronize multiple angles.

[not directed at you specifically - but rather people who think weddings can be done with one camera]
What do you cut to while you are moving your main camera?
What do you cut to while you zoom-in (please don't tell me you leave the zoom in the footage!) What do you have as backup footage when 'this' camera is out of focus (for what ever reason - it happens) ?
What do you have as your backup audio recording?
How do you get the bride arriving while still having footage of the groom?
What do you do when you can't get the shot because the photographer walked in front of your 'money shot' camera? It happens more often than you would think!

I typically shoot ceremonies with 3xHMC and the reception with either 2 or 3 HMCs. Occasionally I find myself wishing for a 4th, so I can't imagine having just one!

exactly:love4:

whether that second cam is the same as the hmc 150 or other lower cam, it is still safer to have that second cam with me everytime I shoot any of my work.

 

[Galleddrim]

I'm hoping that if you are buying this for weddings you are buying more than one camera!

I can't imaging shooting a wedding with a single camera and coming away with anything half decent unless you can manage to stage everything and do retakes! Even then there is no way to synchronize multiple angles.

[not directed at you specifically - but rather people who think weddings can be done with one camera]
What do you cut to while you are moving your main camera?
What do you cut to while you zoom-in (please don't tell me you leave the zoom in the footage!) What do you have as backup footage when 'this' camera is out of focus (for what ever reason - it happens) ?
What do you have as your backup audio recording?
How do you get the bride arriving while still having footage of the groom?
What do you do when you can't get the shot because the photographer walked in front of your 'money shot' camera? It happens more often than you would think!

I typically shoot ceremonies with 3xHMC and the reception with either 2 or 3 HMCs. Occasionally I find myself wishing for a 4th, so I can't imagine having just one!

Yeah, I'll be using my HV30 as my B cam. Can't really afford anything more than that right now. No, I don't think you can get an HMC150 plus a decent lesser cam for the same price of the NX5U. At least not once you factor in all the accessories you need.

For the price of the NX5 couldn't you get a 150 plus a consumer camcorder to use as your second camera. This is what many people do, myself included. My SD100 is setup on a tripod for the ceremony, speeches and first dance and if I had a major problem with the main camera I can cut to that.

Yep. I'll be doing that with the HV30. Tape is a pain . . . but that's what I've got.

Even if a NX5 has 2 memory cards, it doesn't stop some idiot bumping into you, standing in front of you, knocking your tripod over, or your battery or memory card running out at a crucial moment, All these things are much more likely than a memory card failure.

I don't think I'll have problems running out of memory capacity with the 128gb SSD. It can shoot for 11 hours straight on high quality. As for batteries . . . I'll be sure to have a few extras always. Speaking of which, a quality 3rd party battery for the NX5U is $80 less than the HMC150 batteries with lesser mAh. And since the NX5U has lower power consumption, it should last even longer too.

SO . . . this thread has gone WAY off-topic. I don't think anyone has even tried to address Cinegamma VS Cinematone. Maybe we could be back to the original question instead of debating things like rolling shutter and redundant capture?

 

[Exact]

Yeah, I'll be using my HV30 as my B cam. Can't really afford anything more than that right now. No, I don't think you can get an HMC150 plus a decent lesser cam for the same price of the NX5U. At least not once you factor in all the accessories you need.

I recently sold my HV20 that I had for personal use (I've never used it for weddings).

I compared the output from the HV20 and HMC in low light and that was the last nail in the coffin for the HV20. I found that while I could easily mix the footage in good light, mixing the HV20 and HMC footage in low light was going to be a serious problem, even with Neat Video. So many weddings are low light affairs that I hope you figure out a way of doing this successfully because it's a cheaper way to go for sure :thumbsup: I just can't see the HV doing very well on the first dance - as just one example. Manual focusing is a joke using the roller, and auto focus tends to end up focusing on the wall instead of the couple.

 

[Galleddrim]

I compared the output from the HV20 and HMC in low light and that was the last nail in the coffin for the HV20. I found that while I could easily mix the footage in good light, mixing the HV20 and HMC footage in low light was going to be a serious problem, even with Neat Video. So many weddings are low light affairs that I hope you figure out a way of doing this successfully because it's a cheaper way to go for sure :thumbsup: I just can't see the HV doing very well on the first dance - as just one example. Manual focusing is a joke using the roller, and auto focus tends to end up focusing on the wall instead of the couple.

I recently shot my first wedding with my HV30, which is one of the main reasons I decided that I MUST have a pro-level (or at least prosumer, whatever that means) cam. The low light performance was sorely lacking, and the 45mm focal length (35mm equiv) was extremely limiting. My WA adapter shots were easily distinguishable from those without because the image was fuzzier and low light performance took an even greater hit.

It was a one-camera shoot, but I got a video that was satisfactory for the purpose with a little creative editing (no I don't keep the zoom in shot, I cut from wide to tele in edit) since the couple hadn't really thought much about video, and I was shooting for free. It was good experience, but brought to light a lot of limitations of the camera that I need to overcome.

I plan to use the HV30 mostly in full wide mode on a tripod just to have something to cut to as a backup. I'll have to run tests on intercutting with the new cam.

 

[rpatin]

I've been using two HV30s for weddings (I'm a full-time high school teacher, so wedding videography it's more of a hobby job to pay for my love of gadgets). This year, we're stepping up to a prosumer cam and still keeping one of the HV30s for two-camera ceremony coverage. Not ideal, but sometimes you need to work your way up to something better.

Anyway, like a lot of people, I've been stressed out over what camera to get (in the $3,000-$4,000 price range), considering that we're offering a Blu-ray option this year and plan to make it a part of our basic package next year. While I'm planning to wait around to April just to see if Panasonic announces anything new and to get the specs on Canon's new cam, I think I've finally made up my mind.

Yes, the HMC150 isn't as sharp as the NX5U cams, but it's sharp enough. I feel pretty confident that customers will see a noticeable difference between our DVDs and Blu-rays (any opinions about this are welcomed), and frankly, that is what concerns me most. I'm impressed by the HMC150's low-light capabilities and the dramatic colors. The rolling shutter isn't that big of a deal to me, but I'll admit that before I knew what one was, I always wondered why my camera produced a weird image every time someone's flash fired.

As for Canon's new cam, I'm intrigued, but I'm assuming that the price will be high initially and that it will shoot 24F, as opposed to 24P, resulting in a loss of resolution (so I've read). I guess I'll know in another couple months.

So, the HMC150 is for me...well, until somebody comes along and convinces me otherwise!

 

[Robert M Wright]

Shooting free, as a favor to friends, is one thing. Shooting professionally is a whole different thing. That ability to record redundantly with the NX5U is certainly an attractive feature in a camcorder for shooting events (where there are no do-overs), but is no substitute for having two capable (pro caliber) cameras. For the same money as an NX5U, you could get two used FX1s (pretty easily) or possibly two used XH-A1s (if you look hard for good bargains - or spend just a little more). Also, if you are not in a real big hurry to make a purchase, I think it's quite possible that prices on used HMC150s may take a significant tumble after the new Sony pro AVCHD cams and the new Canon (assuming it is competitive - which is likely) have been out for a couple months. It wouldn't shock me if HMC150s can be found used for under $2500 by this summer (especially if Canon delivers something that shakes things up like the A1 did a few years back).

 

[Galleddrim]

Shooting free, as a favor to friends, is one thing. Shooting professionally is a whole different thing. That ability to record redundantly with the NX5U is certainly an attractive feature in a camcorder for shooting events (where there are no do-overs), but is no substitute for having two capable (pro caliber) cameras. For the same money as an NX5U, you could get two used FX1s (pretty easily) or possibly two used XH-A1s (if you look hard for good bargains - or spend just a little more). Also, if you are not in a real big hurry to make a purchase, I think it's quite possible that prices on used HMC150s may take a significant tumble after the new Sony pro AVCHD cams and the new Canon (assuming it is competitive - which is likely) have been out for a couple months. It wouldn't shock me if HMC150s can be found used for under $2500 by this summer (especially if Canon delivers something that shakes things up like the A1 did a few years back).

While I am sure you're correct, I can't afford to wait and see what will happen either. I have a job inked in for early June, and one or two possibles in May. I need to have a couple months at least to familiarize myself with the new equipment, go on test shootings, iron out all the kinks in my workflow, and such. When it comes time to shoot and edit, I want to minimize any surprises.

If the HMC150s drop to $2500 in the summer and it looks like I'm going to be really busy . . . maybe I'll be able to justify picking one up then. I sure got nothing against the HMC150. It looks like a great camera, and I've enjoyed shooting with the HVX200 (not mine) in the past.

 

[Hunter Starnes]

I think the dual recording capability of the NX5U is a great feature to have. I certainly have worried about cards failing on me with my HMC. Hasn't happened yet thank goodness. And I have multiple cameras too, but what if a card fails on me while getting an important closeup or fails on the camera with the wireless mics, losing my sound? I love my Panny, but the dual recording sounds awesome!