HMC noise issue

P

phil s

Member
Hi guys,
First post here and relatively new to the game. I have an HMC154, and playback from camera to my large HD tv looks great. However, when I pull the footage from the SD card to FCP X (yes, I'm aware it has divided opinion) on my macbook pro 13 I notice lots of noise - especially in blacks and shadows. Putting it through Compressor's noise filter doesn't appear to resolve the issue. I have applied Barry Green's file settings - especially LoNoiz, but it doesn't appear to have totally eradicated the issue. There no +gain here -- all set to zero. Am I making some f**k-witted mistake or do I just have to accept that's the way it is with my workflow? Incidentally, I saw in the workflow section a possible issue with Macs and firewire/external hard drives when I searched a little earlier. Typically, I plug in an external drive using the Firewire port and bung my rushes on there. There was a solution suggested (which I don't fully understand):
You just need to transfer it properly; what you have is a computer problem with the reliability of external firewire FAT32 devices. The best recommendation is to transfer your footage again, you will probably find the glitches are gone. And to successfully transfer your footage, we highly highly highly recommend using a file transfer application that uses data verification. Such a program will do data integrity verification as it copies the card contents over, which should ensure that you never see "the glitch" again.


Any help appreciated and I'll try and post up some examples in due course.
 
I have had this issue for a long time, until I after a lot of testing made a great scene file that is low noise but still usable and nice. Since the AF100 uses the same codec and bitrate, check out the huge amount of topics under the AF100 section. A lot of people belive that it has to do with the computer not being able to play the clip as it really is, and instead uses some type of rendering that creates more noise.

Whenever I play a clip on my TV directly from the card after shooting something it looks great, but on my computer and in Premiere it is more noisy. I just learned to live with it.

Anyway, check your scene files, and black balance your camera, this helps out quite a bit! If you ask barry, the HMC150 is really a low noise camera. And I really do belive him, when reviewing my footage on the TV.
 
Thanks for the quick response! Any chance you could find time to post up your suggested scene file so I can have a play? I've done white and black balance, so maybe just a tweak here and there will make it acceptable.
 
I have had the HMC150 for over two years and yes struggled with the same. After much testing I finally got something I like. Here are my Setting

Detail level +2
V Detail Level +2
Detail Coring +2
Chroma Level +1
Mater Ped -20
A. Iris Level -9
Gamma Cine-Like V
Matrix Cine-Like
Skin Tone DTL - ON

Everything else set to auto or 0. Hope this helps you
 
You also have to understand that your computer monitor is much better at displaying finer details than your TV, for example. I have loads of footage that looks like ass on the computer but looks fine on the TV.
 
jjneff said:
I have had the HMC150 for over two years and yes struggled with the same. After much testing I finally got something I like. Here are my Setting

Detail level +2
V Detail Level +2
Detail Coring +2
Chroma Level +1
Mater Ped -20
A. Iris Level -9
Gamma Cine-Like V
Matrix Cine-Like
Skin Tone DTL - ON

Everything else set to auto or 0. Hope this helps you
Click to expand...

I don't see how this setting would bring noise down, increasing detail, combined with cine like gamma can really create a noisy image. Especially cine like gamma is known for it's noise issues. But if it works for you, it's all good =).


I have two main scene files that I always use. One leaves a lot space for color correction and gives the best dynamic range, but can be a bit noisy in dark conditions. The other one gives a more colorfull image, less noise and a overall nice picture without color correction.

Scenefile 1:

Detail: -2
V Detail: -2
Detail coring: +2
Master ped: -3
Gamma: Cinelike D
Matrix: NORM2

Everything else is at 0 or default/off


Scenefile 2:

Detail level: -2
V Detail Level: -2
Detail Coring: +2
Chroma Level: -1
Mater Ped: -3
Gamma: Cine-Like V
Matrix: NORM2


Some basic things about the scene files are that increased detail will generate more noise. Bring the detail down. Don't worry if your image turns out a bit too soft. This can easily be corrected in post production by sharpening the image a little bit. Now you may ask why is it ok to sharpen image in post but not in camera. That's because the editing software has a much better way of processing sharpness and generates less noise comapred to the HMC's tiny processor that does a less good job compared.

Detail coring helps to prevent noise, but adding to much coring will not only ignore the noise but also detail, so be carefull with that one. And also, master pedestal is always nice to bring down in order to get a nice and rich black. This also helps out a bit. But watch out with this sucker, bringing it down to much will crush the blacks to much and actual information in the image will be lost. This is one of the things that you can't recover from in post. Somewhere at -3 to -5 will give you a nice black without loosing any image to the blacks.

Cinelike D is popular, and gives most dynamic range. But it is also most noisy, it also leaves a lot space to play with colors in post. Cinelike V is almost indentical to B press, it gives a more saturated image that is really nice, and less noise. A bit more punchy look.

On the matrix side, avoid cine like since it generates quite some noise. I've never been a fan of this setting since it really boosts all the colors, and creates problems with color correcting. Go with NORM2, it's low noise, natural, and fits the scene files above nice.

Hope this saves you some time and nerves =P.
 
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Works for me because I keep my Master Ped at -20 I like the color pop of the Cine Matrix. All good points and thank-you so much for sharing your settings, I will try those as well!
 
Thank you both. Admir, looks like of all the options that the second of your settings worked nicest for me in the crude test I ran a little earlier. One question though - Barry Green's book stipulates that his scene files should be used with manual white balance and auto iris. I'm not a big fan of auto iris and constantly being prompted to change ND settings. Do your settings rely on auto-iris or can I work it manually?
 
I hope that it helps you out a bit at least =). I have never used auto iris or white balance with any of my settings. Set the correct iris by using the zebra function. The HMCs sweetspot is around f 4 - 5.6. If the image is overexposed simply use the ND filters and finetune with the iris a bit. The only thing I use with white balance is one of the presets, either 5.6k or 3.2k, nothing else.

Try to avoid auto functions, it can become a nasty habbit that ruins really nice shots. By learning how to use all the functions manually, you will also learn to understand them better and how they affect the image, and in your case how to avoid noise =).
 
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I did more testing and the main difference was the saturation level, noise was very close to the same. I really liked your Flat settings for color grading! much appreciated. I second the white balance and I never use auto iris! I use the zebras and before every shoot I do a Black Balance and then set my white balance. I only use auto focus when I can't do it manually. The HMC150 still produces amazing images and I am still really happy with mine.
 
Thanks again, chaps. I had been using manual everything - although occasionally a white balance preset - until I read that line in the HMC book. Glad I can go back to manual.
 
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