FS7: Higher HFR rates and image degradation.

Doug Jensen said:
I've also got 30 minutes of really nice S-LOG3 60-120 fps footage I shot at an NFL game as a test for the NY Giants that I would love to share the link . . . but don't have permission.
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I'll take your 30 minutes of HFR footage and raise you the two TBs I've shot round the world in the last month and half. HFR is OK if you shoot shallow, but it lacks sparkle for sure. Good enough for some clients, not for all.

BTW - you haven't nailed those reds yet. Mine look great.

Oops, forgot to add this;-)
 
Liam Hall said:
I'll take your 30 minutes of HFR footage and raise you the two TBs I've shot round the world in the last month and half. HFR is OK if you shoot shallow, but it lacks sparkle for sure. Good enough for some clients, not for all.

BTW - you haven't nailed those reds yet. Mine look great.

Oops, forgot to add this;-)
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Wow!! Two whole TBs??!!! That's awesome. You must be the king of shooting with that much data. Really cool. I don't even need to see it to know you've nailed the reds. Of course you have. If you say so, that's good enough for me. I've sure got my work cut out for me now if I'm going beat you in the race to acquire data. But just so I know, which is more important, the quantity or that it was shot "round the world". Damn this is great. Apparently I'm in a contest and didn't even know it. I'll try harder to keep up. Thanks for the kick in the pants.

Oops, I was going to add an emoticon too, but they don't have the one I'm thinking of. So I guess I'll have to settle for this :-)
 
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The 7Q might be a good fix for HFR slow motion when needed. On the FS700 with 120fps and 240fps, the 2K RAW was leagues better than the internal FS700 HFR.
 
Its binned.

To me sony made a fundamental error in their implementation of HFR.

Given a certain 'engine size' for the camera - engine being processor etc whatever is under the hood - compromises have to be made.

Red give you a sensor crop as that compromise in exchange for HFR - this is IMO the correct implementation because the OPLF spec stays consistent.

Especially when real world HFR is often sport/tele work where a bit of extra reach/DOF for a given setup can be handy.

S
 
morgan_moore said:
Red give you a sensor crop as that compromise in exchange for HFR - this is IMO the correct implementation because the OPLF spec stays consistent.

Especially when real world HFR is often sport/tele work where a bit of extra reach/DOF for a given setup can be handy.

S
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Yeah I would tend to agree with that, although with Epic the 2k stuff wasn't stellar like the 4k output, after the debayer 2k looked like 720 Varicam quality to me, so OK but no more than that (but at 300fps of course so that's justification!)
I think it's funny how people have slammed RED for years for stuff like sensor cropping, and now that the competition have started doing things in a different way they've realised that RED had done a pretty good job after all!
Steve
 
I'm not a fan of losing my focal length, and think Sony did it a clever way to that regard. The FS7 may or may not get a swappable OLPF but they were thinking about it on the higher end cameras. You can't have it all for $8000.
 
starcentral said:
I'm not a fan of losing my focal length, and think Sony did it a clever way to that regard. The FS7 may or may not get a swappable OLPF but they were thinking about it on the higher end cameras. You can't have it all for $8000.
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But I want it all and I want it all now :)
 
Exactly! The fact you get the exact same implementation of HFR as the CineAlta cameras (faults and all) is quite incredible. It's not limited some further way, or crippled compared to F5/55...
 
5k slomo on the Red = Brilliant
4k slomo on the Red = Brilliant
3k slomo on the Red = Absolutely fine
2k slomo on the Red = Not so great
1k slomo on the Red = Err.....

I would definitely take the FS7 180fps over the Red's 2K HFR. That said I've used tons of that in professional pieces in the past. 3K Red stuff and upwards definitely looks better in my opinion but I certainly don't think there's anything in this price bracket to touch the HFR of the FS7 and for a few seconds here or there who is going to notice?
 
If it was me, and i had my knickers in a knot over any potential aliasing in HFR mode on the FS7 I would be contacting the folks at mosaic engineering and see if they can sell you a 2K OLPF and devise a way to make it changeable - that's what these guys do.
 
For you FS7 guys getting worried about the camera's HFR image quality(aliasing etc.), dont. Over the past 18 months with my F5 I've shot a good deal of material at 72-180 fps in XAVC-HD, full scan and center crop(w/o 2k OLPF). I can honestly say that as long as you feed the image adequate light it's going to look just fine as long as your scene isnt filled with a ton of hard diagonal lines. All of my footage had purely organic subjects and backgrounds and I never saw the slightest hint of aliasing, not once.
 
It may be because I've got aperture set to 30 like on my F3 that i'm seeing a little more aliasing than normal. All other detailing is turned off.
Will test further.

I've got to add this is the best value vs feature camera out there right now.
 
surinder said:
Gene is the 2k RAW hfr also pixel binned?
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It's binned I believe, but so was the original HD from the FS700. I've done serious pixel peeping tests and the 24fps 2K RAW from the 7Q has the exact same same amount of aliasing and moire as the FS700 internal AVCHD at 24fps. I mean identical. There's definitely aliasing so that means that with the FS700 Sony did NOT do a great job with the internal AVCHD HD image.

The good thing is, with higher frame rates on the 7Q, the aliasing / artifacting does not seem to get worse or just mildly. On internal FS700 HFR, all sorts of artifacts started popping up. Basically, HFR on the 7Q RAW holds up much better than internal AVCHD on the FS700.

It's probably better with the FS7 HFR just because of the better internal codec, but I have a feeling (if Convergent does the same debayering) that HFR using the 7Q 2K RAW will still be better, plus you get 240fps as well.
 
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I rearly go below 4K in Hfr with my RED, if you have to use 2K, the trick is to use shallow depth of field as an out of focus back ground is a lot easier on the compression and won't look too bad. Guess the same approach with the FS7 will be usefull
 
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