High School Production Class Advice

shutterspeedfilms

shutterspeedfilms

Well-known member
Hi, guys..

New here, being a former 16mm crony.

I've been tapped to teach a video production class at a local high school. I was hoping some of you more experienced digital folks could point me in a good direction as far as purchasing equipment is concerned. I have approximately $10 grand to spend to update the video department. Currently I'm considering buying a Panasonic AG-DVX100B or a Panasonic PV-GS180. Having a film background, I would like to steer my students into more dramatic short projects, but don't want to buy something so elaborate that we may never utilize the majority of its features. Which of the two cameras would be more appropriate?

I'm also considering purchasing a Dell XPS desktop system for the classes to edit on. I'm thinking 250 gigs of hard drive space should be enough to cover 7 classes worth of collective projects (at a time). What else should I be concerned with regarding memory needs, hard drive space, video cards, sound cards, etc.

I'll probably also purchase a shotgun mic. Would I be able to affix it to the PV-GS180 like the AG-DVX100B? Also, any suggestions as to an affordable and efficient (and safe for novices!) 3 - 4 point lighting kit?

If you can think of anything else I may be needing, please let me know! I'm wanting to keep things as basic as possible, all the while gathering quality equipment.

Thanks for the help!
 
DVX100b

24p recording
lattitude closer to film
progressive scan(interlaced is of the devil; don't introduce the kids to a technilogical limitation that will be dead within 3 years anyways)
filmlike gamma
professional XLR audio inputs so they'll never be limited to the mics they can use
 
Since the cameras will eat up most of your budget, a few Oktova MK012 mics would be a good start. XLR, phantom power, small condenser mics; great sound for the price(~$150). Then get some long XLR cables and boompoles and the students are set! :)
 
It all depends on how the class is going to be set up. If there's gonna be a lot of students and a lot of groups, then I say it's better to get a lot of cheap cameras than one super good one. I mean what are they going to do? 4 or 5 groups share one camera?

Now if it's a smaller class and/or you're planning on everyone just working on one project, then yeah, get a better single camera. If you can spare the cash, get the DVX. If you rather spend the better half of the 10 g on other equipment, than the GS is fine (avoids rocks and pebbles from fellow dvxusers!)

I mean yeah, it would be cool to get the DVX but the thing is honestly, and I don't mean to sound condenscending, but honestly, the majority of high school kids will not take advantage of the DVX to an extent past the GS. Hell, I'm in film school in college and a lot of my classmates don't take the DVX anywhere near the limits of where it can go.

Hell, you could go EVEN CHEAPER than the GS. You could probably just get them entry level camcorders. There are a couple advantages of doing it this way. First of all, if they break it, it'll be easier to get back $300 rather than $3000. Also, since these kids will be newbies who aren't versed in production, by starting smaller, they'll have an easier time learning the basics. Give an unknowing kid a DVX and he's more likely to do something wrong with the camera that will make his footage unusable than if you just gave him a point and shoot camcorder. You have to learn how to walk before you can run. In addition, smaller cameras probably will allow them to shoot faster and have their projects done quicker.

Having nice tools is nice, but I think at this point, it's better to just teach them how to shoot. One thing I've noticed with some film programs (thankfully not the one I'm in) is that they put technical skills over storytelling. In the end it's all storytelling. Teach the kids how to tell stories.

Case in point: one of my short films got into a film festival. I went to the showing which was a block of programming full of other shorts. There was one short made in a college course by an entire production class. In short, it stank. It something about assasins and gambling debts and blah blah blah. It was shot on pretty expensive equipment so it looked alright but bleh. Then there were a couple shorts from high school students and you know what? Despite the fact they were shot on cheap 1 ccd cameras, THEY WERE GOOD. The stories were good. The filmmaking was good. In fact, a high school film won the award for best cinematography. So don't think giving them lower end cameras will impede them and conversely, don't think giving them a DVX will make them the next Van Sant.

FatBird19 said:
Since the cameras will eat up most of your budget, a few Oktova MK012 mics would be a good start. XLR, phantom power, small condenser mics; great sound for the price(~$150). Then get some long XLR cables and boompoles and the students are set! :)
Click to expand...

Then again, Oktava mics are pretty sensitive to handling noise and a bunch of high school kids I'm guessing might not have the discipline to handle them correctly. I mean I traded mines in for an AKG just b/c a lot of times I would have to "employ" my non-film friends to do audio and they just couldn't hold that mic still enough.
 
Thanks for the responses so far, guys.

Fatbird19: Thank you for the helpful information. I was confused by the "audio input" comment comment, however.

EA_Cru: You've pretty much hit my dilemma on the head. I'm torn between buying one really nice camera, or several cheaper cameras for the classes. I must admit, I love the idea of shooting something that looks film like (and I'm sure my students would also). However, I want all students to be able to touch the camera at some point. This would be a challenging proposition with 7 classes averaging 20-25 students! I'm planning on doing several small camera activities during the semester, which I hope will culminate in a large final project created by each class (utilizing a film crew-like setting). The cheaper DV cameras would be great for the camera activities, but I'm worried that their final project will look choppy and grainy, like something off the web. I'd love to organize a film festival at the school, and I'm not sure non-video students would want to sit through that kind of quality. Can you get decent 1-chip technology that will work effectively with editing systems and produce decent images when all is said and done?

By the way, I admire your comment about the importance of storytelling. As you may have already gathered, I am much more of a storyteller than I am a gizmo geek. You'll be happy to know that the video production class will follow a semester of creative writing, wherein students will learn how to write screenplays (some of which will then be used in the video production class).

These comments are really helping me out! Please keep the replies rolling!
 
if oyu have 20-25 students then i strongly recommend you pick up one of those really cheap 3ccd pana cameras.

10071950.jpg


they go for about 800 canadian, so around 740 american me imagines.

i would get that dell computer, pick up six of the pvgs180, then whichever mics suit you best, be it lavs or a shotgun, wit ha boom pole, and get some home depot work lights. Should be set to go.
 
I remember when i was back in high school doing video production we used old SVHS Camera's and had to use Deck to Deck linear style editing. So what ever you give to them will be a large step up from what we used. But, EA_Cru_2002 is right, in that they will not tap the capabilities of the DVX, but at the same time that is not a problem. I think that it far more important to teach the kids how to light, do sound, figure out shot composition and block and stage correctly. If they are able to learn that, then the fact that they are using a 1ccd, or even a low cost 3 ccd camera will be important. Although, i would look for a camera with at least manual iris, so that they will get as much as possible out of lighting. And this goes with us DVX Users as well, we sometimes forget that movies are about story telling through, lighting sound, and cinematography, not who has the best hardware.

First of all, i would like to say, that i repair and build computers to get me though college. And, since hard drives are cheap purchase as much as possible. the same goes for RAM. IF your looking for an inexpensive setup that has power behind it, you may want to look at setups that use the Intel Pentium D 805 which runs at 2.6Ghz. I know our least expensive build with that chip is about 630 dollars. And that computer is no slouch.


I guess you could always use a Mac Mini with FCP Express



Well, back to my high school days, we had 2 linear Deck to Deck systems for 3 classes that had 25 or so people in them, and we extremely backed up. Now, i know it takes far longer to edit deck to deck than on a PC with NLT software, even so, you may want to spend a bit more on getting 2 or even 3 systems to edit with. I just always thought it was frustrating having to wait a week or 2 to edit my project.



Hopefully, i helped answer some of your questions. I am sorry if i rambled on and on but i am sleepy and i should go to bed. BTW I LOVE DVX User.com
 
I agree with Madaspy on almost all points. I also started out on SVHS and deck-to-deck equipment, and even being a relatively technically-minded person, I never really tapped out the potential of even that equipment.

I'd also agree that you should try to get more than one editing machine. You can get perfectly capable editing machines for pretty cheap, so it would be nice to have at least 2 or 3. We had two editing stations when I was in high school, and there were only 2 classes of 15 people each, and those stations were booked almost all the time. I guess the real problem here is that you'll probably have to have legit paid versions of all your software... that could eat through your budget faster than cameras.

Here's my biggest point, though: one 250gb hard drive?? That's such a bad idea. I don't know what your curriculum will look like but I'd be pretty skeptical about it actually being able to hold all of those projects. Furthermore, that's putting everybody's eggs in one basket. What are your kids going to think of you if that drive fails and everyone loses their work? What if some malicious kid decides to tamper with other peoples' projects? I see all sorts of bad scenarios here. At the very least, get two identical discs and back them up continuously. Best case: get a hotswap SATA RAID and give every crew their own drive.
 
yeah, I've been involved in several high school, and local college video production classed, and with few exceptions, go for the cheaper camera.

Especially high school kids, its FAR to easy to have it stolen or broken, and I can almost garuantee you won't get the $3400 back.

It also depends on how you wanna conduct the class. It's really not a bad idea to have the whole class be one group. In most of these classes the instructors show some videos and then basically split the class into groups, they go make crappy movies and then you have a film fest at the end. This seems more like an easy way out for the instructor...

25 kids is a lot, so you'll have to decide how you wanna do it, but if you as the instructor want to take it seriously, consider trying to involve the whole class in one project. The first few days, watch your behind the scenes stuff etc, but then really get into all the jobs required and find out what everyone wants to do, and really sell each position as the best, coolest job. Then split up the kids into departments rather than groups (directors/producers, actors, writers, camera, light, sound, and editors). Then have materials ready (reading/video in addition to equipment) for them to get down and dirty into the art and science of their position.

Then start a production. go through pre/production/post and hopefully everyone will have one cool film to be proud of rather than 5 crappy ones they worked on in one weekend.

If you went this route, then you'd get the DVX. But it would be a lot more work for you. There's something to be said about sending kids out with 5 cameras and not having to worry about it until the get back and turn in projects, but it's not as cool of a class

(lol I've given this some thought)
 
Thanks a million PaPa, Madaspy, Dougspice, Cheesesailor...


Just to clarify, this will be a one-semester class, involving 7 classes of 20-25 students each (in 45 minute-blocks of time). So we're talking CHALLENGING, in the very least!

Cheese: My idea at this point is to assign my creative writing class the semester before video production to compose a one scene script utilizing a minimum of characters and one set. I would then have all of my high tech video production students vote on their favorite, then each of the 7 seven classes would function as a crew and film their own adaptation of it (would be interesting to see how different each class's spin would be on the same material).

From my experience as an English teacher, I just can't fathom the idea of letting groups of kids run off with expensive cameras by themselves (at least, not if we want to have Video Production the following year with any working cameras left). It would be nearly impossible to create more than one decent set anyway, nor could I supervise 5 different student productions x 7 classes. Of course there would be smaller activities involving the different modes of production sprinkled throughout the semester. The film adaptation would be the big finale production, however. I like the idea of having more than one camera for a backup, but I don't know if it would be necessary in terms of student use (maybe a DVX100 + 1 cheap 1-3 CCD camera would be a middleground).

I must say that I have thought about the editing issue, and it does concern me. I'd obviously need enough space for 7 concurrent productions (one for each of the 7 classes) consisting of a few minutes each. I'm thinking 20 - 30 gigs per class might be sufficient. Please correct me if I'm dead wrong.

Finally, I could use some advice regarding lighting. Rigging powerful lights in a high school class really frightens me, as there was a film student or two at my old university who were electrocuted handling lights. I'm thinking practicals may be a cheaper, safer way to go. Maybe an iKan light kit for key/fill lighting as needed, since those seem relatively safe. Any thoughts?

Thanks once again, guys! I can't wait to hear more.
 
I think you'll discover you don't really have enough money to buy very powerful lights anyway. What I would do is encourage the guerilla approach for your students. Maybe buy a handful of Lowell Omni kits or such to use as "real" lights. They're not too expensive, pretty useable, and unlikely to do much more than burn careless people. If you could afford them, a big bank of Kinos or knock-offs would be ideal... it's pretty hard to get hurt with a Kinoflo.

But then augment those with a bunch of Home Depot-style work lights. You could buy a half dozen of those for a hundred bucks. They're not ideal but they're probably good enough and will inspire your students to improvise with whatever's around.

Either way you might want to look into what your school's liability insurance looks like, just in case. I'm not sure, but you might find yourself needing to cover your program under your own insurance policy (depending on the filming regulations wherever you are).
 
I would skip the DVX-100 and go with a GL-2, Audio technica shotgun mic $50, iMac Intel , Final Cut Pro, and a lav mic. spend the rest on tapes and cables, DVD media, books.
 
Ok, I am back, I just got off of another grueling day fixing computers. Well, as far as the harddrive issue, i would consider breaking it down this way: 2 hard drives in each computer; one smaller hard drive, such as a 80-120, which will hold your software and OS, and a large 320-500 GB hard drive depending on your budget. I am suggesting this because having your video all on one drive will save your main OS drive from being Fragmented, consequently killing system performance. Besides, 350 Gb should be enough for 7 classes if your are using more then one computer.

IF you assign a 5 min project, they will shoot probably an hour or 2 of footage which will equal about 22 Gb [DV=25Mbit/s /8bits = 3.125Mb/s x 60/s = 187.5Mb/Min x 120min = 22500Mb or aprox. 22Gb for 2 hours of footage 11Gb Per Hour.] So if you have 7 classes that will equal 153.80Gb. That will give you enough space to Log all of your tapes for your seven classes Plus still have at least 50% of the drive free for the actual editing process. When a student is finished with the project, export it to DVD and back to Mini Dv so they can have 2 copies of their project, and then delete the project on the computer. At least they will have a finished version, plus their masters.


Dougspice, mentioned about data redundancy, and my setup does not have that in mind. And while, i have seen quite a few bad drives in my day, all is not lost if a drive fails because you will still have the masters. I know it a bummer if you have to start over, but at least all is not lost. Although, If you want to have data redundancy, Most new motherboards bases on the intel i945 chipset will support SATA RAID +1 which is for data redundancy. SO, if you wanted you could purchase 2 identical drives and put them in a RAID +1 Setup and it will automatically create write to both of the drives at the same time.

Finally, if you are able get a computer built for your class, because a local computer shop will be able to build just what you need, and nothing more. Although, i know this can be an issue for some schools, and if you decide to go with a Major brand name computer, make sure they give you an official copy of windows, because i know from experience, when you purchase a computer it is loaded with tons of promotional material that seriously detrimental to the performance of your computer. I would recommend doing a full reinstallation of windows and loading only the programs you feel are necessary for the class.

Well, i know i said finally before, but i have one more thing, Tapes, I think you will need quite a few tapes, I just don't want you to over look the importance of tapes as far a the budget is concerned.
 
Another thing you might want to do is contact other schools who have been successful with digital media classes. See how they conduct their classes and whatnot.

I don't know how it is where you are at but here where I live in Hawaii, there's a couple high schools that are doing REALLY well with their digital media classes. Here's a anecdote.

My friend who's in the University's film school entered one of his films into a film festival competition. The only situplation was that it had to be a school project, whether high school or college level. Well he was one of the few college ones. 90% of the rest were from this high school called Waianae. Anyway, my friend did win. The prize was a Sony ZR1 hd camera that is supposed to go to the school. My friend though, he felt bad because he felt he was "taking away" the camera from the high school kids and told his professer he wanted to donate it to Waianae until she looked him straight in the eye and said, "Ty, they have better equipment than us." :-)

If you maybe want to email those teachers from Waianae, that might be a good idea (I don't know their contact info cuz I didn't go to that high school though that's what google is for!) :-)
 
JUST GIVE THE KIDS A FREAKIN CAMERA THEY ARE NOT NERDS LIKE US. if they love film they can persue it. But highskool is just a place to taste diffrent things. Iam glad that i worked with canon zr for the last three years of skool.
 
Well, I'm sorry for the late response.. I tried to respond for this thread two times now, and for some reason my post wasn't acknowleged... Weird... And infuriating...

Well I'll try to keep it short. I'd buy 3 iMacs with A nice ammount of ram and external FW HDs, Basically I'd Budget around 4300 for those. (Why Macs, well they are licensed with iMovie wich is good for starters. Maybe one of those could be running FCPExpress too, just to give the more interested kids a little more to play...

Then I'd buy three cameras, the cheapest miniDV they can get, that offers manual white balance, audio inputs (can be miniplugs, don't matter) and focus ring (can you believe some cameras don't have it?!). Plus a beachtek XLR adapter. I'd budget 800 for each package, totalling another 2400. So already we're at 6700, but we've walked a long way. We have cameras and editing computers.

Those 3300 left are tricky. Basically, They will have to cover 3 audio kits and tripods.

I'll be honest. No room for great equipment here. The good news is that medium to good can still be achieved. Let's say a directional mic for 200, support and windprotection for 300 and a boom for 150. Headphones for 50, a cheapo tripod for 200.

That times three, you get 2700, so you still have 600 dollars to spend on cables, general acessories, and some really cheap clamp-on lights.

I'd be very proud to have a class in a high school so well equipped. And if you manage to rotate groups shooting while others are editing, you can divide your 25 kids into 6 groups of 4, wich is kind of nice. Wait a second... 25/6... Oh yeah, let's not forget jimmy, he can watch in the back... :)
 
Thanks for the tremendous help, guys!

I spoke with the computer guy yesterday, and it seems they've taken the liberty of purchasing equipment before my contract was approved. Now, we won't get into any of that because life is too short and I'm just psyched to have this job. This is where we're at so far:

*40 G4 laptops for individual student/teacher use
*2 Canon ZR-500 miniDV cameras
*iLife editing software
*10 iPods

That's the gist of it. Not a DVX-100, but it is what it is. :)

He was open to purchasing additional equipment (including extra hard drives, DVD burner, tripods, etc.) So I suppose that's where the direction of my post should head now. It sounds like the bulk of their wad has already been spent, so I'm probably looking at purchasing additional equipment on a small budget.

So what say you all now?
 
Some of these post were so long I stopped reading them!
With that many laptops I would assign 4.375 kids per laptop and group them. You have what you have so stay positive.
You dont need extra hard drives now and you have your NLE set.
Get lots of tapes and all the firewire to download to each laptop.
Those little Canons work fine in good light but are terrible in lowlight.
Magic Bullet is a terrific way to enhance storytelling.
Toss an external mic on the camera because the on camera mic picks up the camera noise and it sounds really bad and loud.
Kids in class working together is safer than them off with cameras....I personally walked the halls filming skirts in high school ..cough*20 years ago*cough...
 
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