Help with preamp or mixer...

magicmack

magicmack

Active member
Hey, I am looking to make my Canon Gl2's audio and I need a bit of assistance with a preamp or mixer. I made the first step buy buying a At835b shotgun mic, and it sounds excellent. At the moment I am running it straight through the camera with a 5' xlr to 3.5mm Trs. It does not sound to bad actually. Hardly any hiss, but the voices do not sound as rich as I would like, and like one would hear in a film. So I am looking to pick up a preamp, or mixer to hopefully to the job. So would it make sense to use a mixer or preamp to record right into my macbook, or would it be better to use a mixer or preamp and record directly to the camera? What mixer or preamp would be a good choice? I was looking at a Shure M267. Would that work any better then my current setup or would i just be spinning my wheels getting it?

Thanks
 
magicmack said:
.... It does not sound to bad actually. Hardly any hiss, but the voices do not sound as rich as I would like, and like one would hear in a film.....

Thanks
Click to expand...

Sorry you're not going to get full and rich and sounding like a film (if you're talking high end movies) recording to a camera like this.

Even the higher end cameras in my opinion barely get you there. (but they do)
such as the high end Panasonics (hdx900,vari..etc) and sony's (f-900..etc)

Nor will you see a major production using your mic (not dissing it, im sure its just fine for you)

For more control yes I'd recommend you getting an external mixer with good limiters (any sound device product is the way to go IMO)

My advice is, if you dont have a pretty good amount of money to spend on audio learn to do the best with what you have until you learned to absolutely take that level of equipment to its fullest.

Then if you're doing "film" and using that camera you mentioned I would spring for a recorder (whether its a low budget recorder or higher thats up to you)
which will be a pretty big step up from recording to camera.
 
Hey, thanks Ripple for the response. When I said that recording into the camera was not that bad, what I meant was that it is surprisingly much better that I thought it would be. In no way was I saying it was the right way to do things. Thats why I was asking for advice.

I also understand that I would never see my mic on a major film production. Yet I do not have the money to purchase the equipment used. I purchased it as a step up from my in camera my and to get experience using a boom mic and getting the most out of it.

My budget is not that much to expand on a new mixer preamp. Would it make sense to purchase a lower cost mixer, to get introduced to them? How much improvement would a lower cost mixer make, over my current, recording to camera setup? Would a mixer like a Shure M267 be adequite, to learn and improve my current audio?

Thanks
 
The M267 is great if you need to hook up a couple of mics to a hotel sound system, but I don't think you're going to get too many recommendations for it in this application. :)

What to buy at this point, I think, depends on (obviously) your budget and (perhaps just as obviously) where you see yourself going. If the GL2 is just a stop-gap camera for you, and the same for the current mic, and you have the budget for something like a Sound Devices rig, then you have a quality piece that you can still use when you upgrade everything else.

OTOH, if you're unsure of where you're going, and your budget is limited (as it seems to be), one thing to consider might be one of the Beachtek or Juicedlink adapters. (I use the Beachtek DXA-4P with the GL2 myself; there are people here who prefer the Juicedlink, but I don't know much about them, although I'm sure they're good.) These are not exactly production quality gear (to say the least), but they do give you an extra step of control between the mic and the camera; and they are specifically designed for this purpose, to plug an XLR mic into a 3.5mm camcroder, so I think they're at least a step up from what you're doing now (however small that step is :) ).
 
Thanks, captain Pierce for the response. I definitely understand what you are saying and agree completely, with you. You are right, my budget is not that significant right now. I am looking for a device that is a step up from my current setup. What I would like to accomplish is a warm, and full audio, compared to the flat sound I am getting now from my current setup. I was also thinking about getting a Beachtek or Juicedlink system, but I don't know how it would compare to a mixer that is connected via firewire to my macbook.

Captain Pierce, do you have any samples of your audio that you have shot with the GL2 and Beachtek? Or and videos?

Thanks
 
The Beachtek/Juicedlink is a necessary first step for the GL2. The benefits of an external mixer will not be fully reaped without XLR inputs, which for the GL2 requires a better quality XLR>1/8" conversion.

Plus, the XLR converter box gives you the opportunity to run the mic straight in for news-style run and gun if you need to.

Most of the boxes are passive, so you aren't going to get better pre-amps, but you can pick up a new Sound Devices MixPre or a used Shure FP33 for about the same price. And this is where I'm going to stop talking about specific gear and echo Rippie's recommendation to learn to do with what you have, which will also give you a better idea of what to get if you can afford any upgrades in gear. This DVD is a fantastic place to start.

You also need to understand that part of the sound challenge you are facing may come from mic placement. Film dialog is much fuller because the mic is really close to the talent. So if your mic is on your camera, you're not going to get anything usable.
 
Hey, thanks C2V for the response. As for my mic, it is definitely on a boom pole, not mounted to the camera. I do agree completely with the both of you saying that I should work with the gear with I have. But I also think I should have some mixer to start practicing on to.

Would it make more sense to bypass the straight to camera method(beachtek, juiced link,...etc) and just get a descent mixer and record onto my macbook?

Thanks
 
The thing is, though, the mixer really doesn't add anything to your sound. (Well, except a cheap one that would add noise, but obviously that's not what anybody's after. :) ) As Rippie said, your sound quality at this point is basically limited by your mic and your camera. Can't help you with recording to the Macbook, never done recorded to computer and I'm a PC guy anyways. :D There are people here who do this, though, so hopefully someone will wander by.

Sorry, no samples; what I shoot (or, these days, mostly book for other techs to shoot :D ) is event stuff where we hand the tapes over to the client at the end of the day. So even I had them, they probably wouldn't help much anyways. :)
 
magicmack said:
Would a good preamp not make the sound have a warmer, fuller sound? Or am I wrong?
Click to expand...

Well, you're only half wrong.

Some pre-amps add warmth. Some don't. And some cheap pre-amps will kill your signal.

But a pre-amp is not going to make a sub-par mic sound better. And mic placement is important no matter what mic you have. The further away the mic is from the subject, the less of the frequency spectrum you're going to get. So once all the life of the sound has been lost to distance, it doesn't matter what kind of warmth your pre-amp adds.

The other thing about adding warmth... with dialog for TV/film, the idea is to record as clean and flat as possible. Anything to be added to the signal will be added in post.
 
Ok, thanks very much. So should I worry about getting a beachtek or Juicedlink unit, or just keep using my current setup?

Thanks
 
Okay, I think that it's time for you to really get into some audio basics.

First; sound for picture is very different than music recording. Gear for music applications tend to have sonic "personalities", that is, they color the sound in a (hopefully) pleasing way. When doing production sound you want gear with a "flat" frequency response that doesn't color the sound. When doing audio post for film the sound editors and mixers tend to want "uncontaminated" sound sources. We can "color" it up to our hearts content, but it's very hard to "uncolor" something - it's kind of like trying to take the rum out of a rum and coke.

Next; all gear has self-noise. This is the hiss and hum generated by each piece of gear. The very high end gear uses very expensive components and have stringent manufacturing processes (at least they're supposed to), so they tend to generate very little self noise. Budget gear tends to have more self noise. The big problem is that most people don't hear it, until the audio is played in a sonically isolated and treated room on some really nice speakers.

Next; signal chain. Each link (piece of gear) in your chain is going to generate self-noise. The affect is cumulative - noisy mic into noisy pre-amp into noisy recorder, it all adds up. Getting a juicedLink or Beachtek would be a step in the right direction; you will have marginally better sound as you are bypassing some of the GL2 audio circuitry and, more important, better control when on the set.
 
JuicedLink is more quiet than Beachtek. JuicedLink doesn't have limiters though, but it's better than nothing. The guy has some comparisons to Beachtek and SoundDevices on his youtube page. I have one for a second camera, and it's not bad. It's switchable between Line level and Mic level which is great - if your camera can do line level. Line level is much quieter.

http://www.youtube.com/user/juicedLink

But the sound Devices MixPre is the cheapest way to get a pro signal - with limiters and phantom power. 665.00 isn't a lot in the big picture. It has I believe 65db of gain, which will allow you to turn your camera's input down. It's a line level only device though - so your camera must have a line level input.
 
Chadfish said:
It's a line level only device though - so your camera must have a line level input.
Click to expand...

Most of the XLR converter boxes can take mic or line signals.

There are used Shure FP33 mixers out there as well for roughly the same cost as a MixPre, which give you switchable mic/line output, 3 ins as opposed to 2, and rotary pan control.

But again, there's a lot more to audio than just "getting a pre-amp."
 
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