Help put me out of my agony -- another "which one?" thread...

M

midiotlv

Member
Like many other first-time posters, I've been studying -- I mean really studying -- this forum for the the better part of a month.

I have made-up my mind and changed it about 50 times. My wife is starting to get concerned that I am spending so much time doing research on which camera to get. :)

I was hoping to get some last minute advice/thoughts from the incredible forum members here on which camera might suit my needs the most.

Here is my situation:

Current Equipment/Experience
1. Canon XL1 (DV)
2. Film SLR and digital point-and-shoot
3. Editing on Mac (FCP/imovie) and PC (Vegas) (editing is my forte, but I love being behind the camera, too)

So am I a pro? -- Not hardly. But, I have all the signs of one in the making. ;)

What I am looking to shoot/requirements:
1. Every year, I film parts of a high-school musical (including rehearsals and tech/dress rehearsals) for a 15-20 minute compilation using video and stills. This year, I'd like to stretch it out to a 45-60 minute documentary-style film (i.e. a 'making-of' type documentary).

2. I would like to start producing wedding/event compilations like I've seen on Vimeo (not necessarily event filming -- at least not yet -- but 5-7 minute comps). Also, I am looking into video-resume production (future).

3. I would like to film some creative off-the-cuff stuff that may include keying, grading, and special effects (i.e. from After Effects or Motion).

4. Finally, something I can take with me on a cruise or other road-trip to shoot candids/family suff (basically -- something I can lock in a hard-case around the size of a carry-on bag).


My considerations:
1. Canon 7D -- Definitely wins on the portability factor, seems to shoot pleasing-to-the-non-critical-eye video (even with the aliasing and RS/Jello), stills capability (just one camera to carry), DOF, and 'stealth'. The cons are well documented, so I don't need to spit them back out here. Approximate cost of this solution (using B&H): 3030.75 (Canon 7D body, Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM with hood and filter kit, 2 16GB UDMA Sandisk CF cards, and a lens case for the almost-L glass).

2. HMC150 -- close to the same price as the 7D package --- a little bit more when you throw in the lockable HMC150 case for transport and decent (i.e. Sandisk Extreme III) SDHC cards (Best price for package ~3800 (includes the HMC, 2 16GB SDHC cards, and one hard storage case)). My BIGGEST concern with the 150 (besides the codec and the easy-to-live-without-but-nice interval recording of the 40 and the 170) is the reliability of shooting to SDHC. It has only taken a couple of weeks of reading through the 150 section and hearing about the "CHECK CARD" errors to scare me enough to consider the jump to P2. Are we just hearing the few amongst the many who have had issues? I would hate (in any shooting situation) to lose footage -- this is important to me. If the SD card issue hadn't given me pause, I'd probably be playing with either a 7D or 150 at this point.

3. HPX170 -- OK...the high end (for me and my budget). When I first started my research, I immediately ruled out the 170 due to its higher cost and the cost of P2 media. However, after tons of research, it seemed that the 170 was getting closer to meeting all the needs I had identified. With the 500 rebate taken into consideration, the price of the 170 is only about 1100 more than the 150 (I know...ONLY 1100 lol). When you add a 64GB P2 card (and factor in good memory for the 150), the price difference stabilizes at about 1500. (Unfortunately, the case options don't seem as good for the 170 as there is no blue case made just for it (like the 150). The best option I could find was from Zacuto at ~300 (case + foam insert)). Of course, the DVCProHD format is reportedly easier to deal with than AVCHD - although I do not state that as fact (just from what Jan has said when comparing the HMC to the HPX) as I have no direct experience with DVCPro codecs. Also, I'm convinced that the HPX will do a better job (all things equal) with keying than the 150 due to the color sampling [and probably the 7D, as well].

The 150 and 170 are quite a bit larger than a 7D, but it still seems reasonable to walk around with one on vacation (any thoughts here?). Also, some have pointed-out the lack of sharpness (compared to the DSLRs) of the HMC and HPX. However, I really like the look of both the HMC and HPX. There is, in my opinion, such a thing as too much sharpness when you are shooting people (landscapes are another thing completely -- but even the landscape footage I've watched from the HMC/HPX looks great to me).


So, to summarize, the 7D and 150 are similar in cost. The theater shooting I do makes the choice harder for me. I could see the 7D for low-light handling and better DOF, but the 150 for handling motion better (CCD's). Typically, the actors are lit by pro-level stage lighting (we have an incredibly connected director) and I am either filming from on-stage or from the first few rows.

If the 150 is really the better choice vs the 7D (even if I can get over the CHECK CARD fear), am I just stupid for not going to the HPX170/P2 workflow (and 4:2:2 color) for ~1500 more?

I would really appreciate any advice/thoughts you might have (I have been drinking from the fire-hose for the last few weeks -- who ever thought I would be able to accurately explain the differences between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 color sampling?).

One thing I am 100% positive about, though.....and that is that no matter what I choose, something with better specs and a cheaper price tag will be released within a few days. :) Seriously.....

But, I want to get something and get out there!

Thanks again for your assistance and I apologize for the long post. I can only promise to help others once I've made my choice and have some time under my belt.

Peace,

Don


P.S. Thanks to everyone here (especially Barry Green) for participating in such a great forum! I cannot tell you how much I've learned just from reading though the articles and posts. The amount of information contained here is just amazing.
 
Last edited:
After using the HMC150 for a while now, I could comment on the "Check Card" I had it on once, i took the card out n put another one in, and kept on working... at the end of the day got home and checked the card. Everything was there, even the last clip up to the moment it stopped recording. Needless to say i retired that card. and never had a problem again.

Now looking back to the old tape days, i remember having tape dropouts that cause me more problems than just switching a card. I even know of people recording tapes that would get to the editing part an everything would be non-readable or just plain digitized.

To me tapeless is the way to go, I feel very safe with the HMC150 and the SDHC cards (knock on wood) I currently use Sandisk Extreme III cards (the problem i had was with a different card)

*Now I'm not an expert on the 7D, i have mess around a few times with them. The most recent time last Saturday, and from someone that has been working with camcorders for a while now all i can say is that I couldn't imagine myself doing all the work that i do with just a 7D or any DSLR. I'm not taking anything away from them, as a matter of fact i want one for Christmas (hope my gf is reading this). But for a main camera not for me, as a second cam sure!

now the 170/200 is also a nice option, but with a bigger price tag.

If i was in your position, and with the options you have listed, I would get the HMC150.

But if i was looking around i would also consider other brands... nah I'm just joking!!!! or am I??? please don't ban me!!!
 
HMC150 will fit your budget, has cheaper storage and better for events as the cards store a lot more than p2. Pro audio and other camera features. Really, the HMC150 is "the" Panasonic event video shooter's camera. My buddy has an HVX200 and is always worried about remaining record times, especially when shooting concerts and sports. Not I!

Buy cards from reputable manufacturers and you shouldn't have a problem. All flash memory (even compact flash for a 7d) runs a risk of bugging out on you since it is not redundant like p2 (raid array). It's rare though. Just google search a brand before buying.

HMC150 is very versatile, and very similar to an HPX150 but records a diff codec, does not do multiple frame rates (though you can shoot in 720P and slow that down on a 30 or 24p timeline). I'm sure you can find a run down on the difference's in this forum. My point is the HMC150 is a nice camera and for the price, very good.

7D: Nice DoF. CMOS issues aside, it is very portable but lacking some very important features, like balanced audio input, a way to control input levels, multi channel input, etc. PITA to operate depending on what you are using it for. Overheats requiring cool down period so no good for long events.
 
I am a relative noob in the world of video, but have extensive experience shooting SLRs (everything from 6x6, 645, 35mm that used this one-shot disposable sensor that came in rolls). The 5D2 was my gateway into video, I found that video was more effective telling certain stories, but the handling, ergonomics, and featureset left so much to be desired. It has great glass on a great sensor. It is well and truly optimized to be a digital still camera and it does a phenomenal job at it.

But it's precisely because of that, that it doesn't make a great video camera. Just handholding for significant periods of time is cumbersome and tiring. I am 'flying blind' when it comes to audio, with no audio levels, and whacko automatic gain control that really makes the audio sound funny. Even my little HF100 compact video cam presented a much more balanced package - and better audio.

The 5D2 would be a great replacement for DOF adapters (IMHO, and not many will agree with me, but that's my perspective), but not for run-and-gun shooting which I do at events.

I stepped up to the HMC150 and I have been blown away. In fact, to me, the HMC150 is the 5DMk2 of the video world - not the absolute top-of-the-line, but tremendous bang for the buck. I can shoot video with the 150 in similar kinds of horrible awful low light at events that I can shoot stills with the 5D2, with the gain at 12dB, and virtually noiseless. I'd have the 5D2 cranked up to 3200-6400 ISO, and the 150 at 12dB. Great audio dials, dual XLRs, and lots of manual control buttons on the outside of the camera.

For memory cards, my rules are
- ALWAYS FORMAT YOUR CARD IN-CAMERA just before an event. Then point the camera at the wall and shoot a test frame or clip (couple of seconds is fine). Play it back.
- When you get a new card, test it. Fill it to its maximum capacity with files, then find some computer utilities that will compare the files to their original versions on hard disk and determine if they are identical. This way, you'll test writes and reading back.

I had a 8GB card that would write perfectly and throw errors when I tried to read the files back. Once in a long time, one of my cards will go bad. Stuff happens I guess.

I prefer CF media, higher performance (especially I/O's per second due to better built-in controllers) and in my opinion more rugged, mechanically stronger due to larger size, but I wasn't given that choice in Panasonic's lineup. A HMC150 with selectable 24, 25, 30fps and dual CF slots would be PERFECT :D
 
I just want to comment on the lack of a bag for the HPX - the HMC150 and HPX170, as I understand it, have virtually identical dimensions. Any bag for one should fit the other perfectly.

Also, what do you think of the HMC-40?
 
you don't exactly have to have the panasonic branded hard case for the hmc/hpx, but they are exactly the same camera on the outside so the cases would be the same. look for any good locking case that will fit the dimensions of the cam and you can customize it to fit.

Like others stated, p2 record times and price are scary for long-form work (unless you have a fully loaded 5 slot cam). Of course if long record times aren't your thing, the hpx is an awesome camera, but the cards get expensive fast and the hmc offers more bang for your buck especually when you factor in everything else you might need to buy. Consider any other accessories you may need to do the new work you're interested in: mics, lighting (on or off camera), batteries, better tripod, etc.
 
Have you considered the Sony NXcam or the EX-1R?

FYI I use the HMC-150. They are all just tools.
 
NXcam isnt out yeat the the EX1r miles more expensive then the HMC150 and is most likely out of his price range.
 
Hi, just chipping in, i have had card errors twice on the hmc, both conveniently when other people were using it. Both times it has been fixed with the free AVCCAM Restorer application with no footage lost.
 
Not sure what the price range is, but the ex1-r might be a good option, it's about in the same price range of an hpx170 with p2 cards and will have a bit better low light. Not sure what the new sxs cards will cost, but you could always use the sdhc adapters. On the other hand, I absolutely love the hmc150 and it's half the cost.
 
Thanks to all of you for your insight and comments! The hpx170 is really pushing my short-term budget (the EX1 tips the scale), but I'm still considering it because with the rebates it really is only about 1100 more (I guess I need to decide if the differences between the 2 really warrant the difference).

The only real draw to the 7D at this point is the convenience-on-vacation factor...but other drawbacks (like audio, not being able to flip the LCD and shoot yourself with feedback (how would you do this on a DSLR?), and the aliasing/rolling shutter issues) make me hesitant to go with that cam. It seems that if I throw a lot of money at it (i.e. zoom recorder, some stabilization system, z-finder), it gets a little easier to deal with (12 minute max clip and overheating aside).

I really do appreciate the time you all took to reply...this is really a great forum!

-Don

P.S. Thanks for your comments regarding the check-card issue on the 150....I have to remind myself that you almost always hear more of the problems/issues on this type of forum than the successes (and that is a good thing...I'd hate to suffer through endless threads of "my HMC150 worked great today".) :)
 
Last edited:
It really depends on what you are using it for... it always is...

So its a 7D vs a HPX?

Quickly IMO - you want to make money and have the ability to do so, go HPX. If you want to have a camera on vacation, and very limited pro-camera abilities go with the 7D.

The HMC150 is still a better option, and right in the middle, imo.
 
midiotlv said:
The only real draw to the 7D at this point is the convenience-on-vacation factor...
Click to expand...
The 7D isn't a very good on-vacation camera at all. The GH1 blows it into the weeds in that regard. I recently did an article on the 7D vs. GH1 for various purposes, and for a personal camera, the GH1 comes out miles ahead. For a digital cinema camera, the 7D is way better. As a "video" camera for professional use, neither is worth considering seriously.
 
Yeah...I'm thinking the HMC150 might be the best buy for what I need.

Does anyone have any experience cruising with one of these cams? Have you found it too large to take with you? Personally, I don't mind carrying around a larger (relatively, of course) cam for a better image overall. My 'biggest' fear is making sure it is secure in cabin when we aren't carrying it around. A lockable case secured to something in the cabin should work (not against a professional theif, but someone who might see a crime of opportunity (I guess that's what insurance is for)).

This is what I meant by the DSLR 'draw' on vacation...I could probably take off the lens of the Canon and store the body and lens in the safe. :)

Thanks again for all your advice -- it is VERY appreciated.

-Don
 
Last edited:
Just in case anyone was interested....which I doubt.... :)

(But on the other hand, there are so many threads that never 'resolve' ---)

After flipping back and forth 50 more times and reading Barry's reports -- I finally decided that I'm not ready to make a decision. I did end-up buying a GH1 for our vacation (based on Barry's write-up and the 1/3 cost of the 7D with lenses). I figure I will get 'tourist' video and great stills (maybe not 7D quality stills, but then again even those aren't to 5D standards) and make my video cam purchase when we get back from vacation.

If budget permits, I will give the new EX1r serious consideration against the HPX (I hate to go CMOS, but 1/2" chips are quite attractive..and with Sony rebates the cost is nearly the same (when I include one 64GB P2 card). So I will deal with the HPX vs EX1r battle later (and who knows, maybe there will be something new from Panny by then).

Of course, if budget doesn't permit the HPX/EX1r (the 'better' codecs are the draw here), then I'll gladly go with the HMC150 -- which I think is a wonderful camera (just not a huge fan of AVCHD -- although I don't know if I quite 'need' the P2 or XDCAM-EX workflow, but I might want to shop some of my work around to cable networks (and so far AVCHD isn't really welcomed)).

Anyway, the way I look at it is that I'll have an awesome video camera (150, 170, or other) when my project starts next year, as well as the GH1 to get up-close DOF shots (especially once I can land that 20mm 1.7 pancake lens). Little bit of 'best-of-both-worlds' for my first big shoot.

I want to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone who expressed an opinion. This is sure a great forum, and I can't wait to start shooting.

-D
 
Having recently purchased an HMC 150 I can say that you probably can handle all your requirements with it, and agree with your getting something smaller to shoot your cruise and road trip stuff. The HMC is a bit of an expensive camera to just haul around and shoot family/cruise stuff with. I'll probably get a smaller cam,maybe a Sony or something to just trash on that stuff, or get stolen!

I've decided to not go with a hard shell for now, as I shoot without a lot of travel, but got one of the backpack bags w/foam inserts that can hold the whole thing. That way I can hike into the mountains up here in the PNW, ski, or whatever, and keep the weight down. The camera is sooo light, that I am trying to keep overall weight down. Biggest issue is whether to get a heavier tripod! It can be blown a bit in the wind, which on the shores up here can be a big issue. It's almost always windy here.

When I fly, I'll either carry the backpack or break down and get a Pelican.

As to editing AVCHD, my Sony Vegas Video 9.0c & Quad core HP w/6GBs RAM appears to handle the format fine, with no converting to edit. Just shoot short takes if possible!!!! (G). Rendering is so far about 1:1 to get output, but I haven't tried lots of layering and sound.

Have fun!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top