Help needed, recording band sound with a H4N

Doc Bernard said:
Assuming you have done this before, Mitch.....how do you play back the drums you previously recorded for the band to play to, without re-recording them on the H4n? That would necessitate in ear monitoring in order to not hear them doubled on the recording.

I don't know too many garage bands that can do an accurate performance just with a metronome. Most of them need to hear at least the bass and drums.
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Before I had a lot of gear to record drums I usually used a gtr dfx pedal that has a metronome and headphone out. Most do. Drummer wears the HP's, guitarist rocks with the drummer and the performance is recorded until you are pleased with it. (If you don't have a metronome and just an amp HP jack that will be fine too. An inexperienced band may get confused by a metronome anyway if they aren't used to it. I just prefer to use one.)

From there open your stereo file into an audio program like garage band, cubase, Protools, ect... Each player can wear headphones during recording or since we are going to DI everything you can simply playback through your speakers. There are no mics to be used here except for the singer and even still many bands vocals are recorded next to speakers to hear playback. I even find for a demo this to be a better approach as the singer tends to feel the music more.

Success. Easy enough isn't it?
 
I am not saying it can't be done with the right gear. Heck, I could set up a full recording rig for them with in-ear monitoring, discrete tracking, custom foldback mixes. But all we know is he has an H4n for recording. Nothing else. Does the band even have DI boxes?

So, how would you do what you proposed, with just the H4n? Because if you have done it with just a Zoom, I want to learn how. I never stop trying to learn new audio tricks/tips.
 
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Doc Bernard said:
I am not saying it can't be done with the right gear. Heck, I could set up a full recording rig for them with in-ear monitoring, discrete tracking, custom foldback mixes. But all we know is he has an H4n for recording. Nothing else.

So, how would you do what you proposed, with just the H4n?
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Not trying to be a dick just making it simple so others understand.

Step 1: Setup your drums with fresh skins and get the drummer and guitarist to jam out the song a bit (maybe a few different ones so they don't get bored of it).

Step 2: Plug headphones into the GTR amp and throw them at the drummer (literally)

Step 3: He said the band has mics. Plug the mics into the H4n.

Step 4: Get a nice overhead setup, I find the recorderman technique to work well in this type of situation.
(If the drums need more later, add sample kick, snr, toms... Like I said, if they are renting a rehersal space do it there since they are usually treated.)

Step 5: Record the song, record the song, record the song, record the song. Listen/drink beer. Record the song, record the song, record the song..............

Step 6: Attach H4n to computer with recording software and throw the best drum take (or cut a bunch together) onto stereo track 1, name it drums.

Step 7: Attach your bass to the computer via 1/4 > H4n > Comp.

Step 8: Record the bass to the drums in the MTR software and name accordingly. (make sure you have your software set to playback through your computer out)

Step 9: Repeat step 7/8 until you have everything you need to be recorded and get editing.

Step 10: Mix and adjust to perfection

Step 11: Master your song

Step 12: Bounce that s**t!

I've done this exact setup with an H4n, two 57's, and a laptop. I had no other gear as I went up north to hang out with a band for a week and not record a song but I always bring a recorder and a couple of mics with me just incase. We ended up recording and getting a great sounding track out of it.

I like to have a solid recording of the overheads but I'm pretty good at programming and also have done the same thing with completely sampled drums.
 
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Step 6: Attach H4n to computer with recording software and throw the best drum take (or cut a bunch together) onto stereo track 1, name it drums.

Step 7: Attach your bass to the computer via 1/4 > H4n > Comp.

Step 8: Record the bass to the drums in the MTR software and name accordingly. (make sure you have your software set to playback through your computer out)
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So he has to bring a computer to the gig now. That is beyond the scope of the OP's question about how to do it with just his H4n, Mitch. You are adding gear to his set up. Which he may or may not have access to.

Remember, he is using just his H4n to record. Nothing else. And that is what I am trying to explain. If he only has the H4n, any suggestion of any other gear is a moot point, because he only has the Zoom.
 
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Doc Bernard said:
So he has to bring a computer to the gig now. That is beyond the scope of the OP's question about how to do it with just his H4n, Mitch. You are adding gear to his set up. Which he may or may not have access to.

Remember, he is using just his H4n to record. Nothing else. And that is what I am trying to explain. If he only has the H4n, any suggestion of any other gear is a moot point, because he only has the Zoom.
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Why would he have to bring a computer to the shoot? The OP wanted to get a recording of the band to make a video to... Not record a band live. Which would require him to use a computer at some point before the shoot to dump the track onto an Ipod or CD. Which means he has access to a recording software (garage band, Audacity are a couple freebies if you don't have one). Since he's a student and this is an assignment, it also gives me grounds to assume he has access to a computer of some sort.

You have to re read his post Doc, his second post too. I'm just telling him how to do exactly what he wanted to do, aside from the lip sync question... In that case, play the song you recorded over your speaker as you would and just have the singer sing along with it.

Please don't explain he only has the H4n again, I understand what you're saying but we can go outside the box and assume what I had said is plausible.
 
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Okay, I must have mis-read your steps 6-8 where you said you were hooking the bass up to the computer through the H4n, and having playback through the computer "out" in a later step.

I've done this exact setup with an H4n, two 57's, and a laptop. I had no other gear
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This is where I am confused also. Oh well.
 
Doc Bernard said:
So he has to bring a computer to the gig now. That is beyond the scope of the OP's question about how to do it with just his H4n, Mitch. You are adding gear to his set up. Which he may or may not have access to.

Remember, he is using just his H4n to record. Nothing else. And that is what I am trying to explain. If he only has the H4n, any suggestion of any other gear is a moot point, because he only has the Zoom.
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Sometimes the tools on hand are not adequate to do the job properly. Rather than making do with what you have, it's time to rethink, determine what tools are needed, and figure out where to acquire them. Multitracking with a laptop and software such as Audition would be far more practical than trying to kludge together a workflow based solely around the H4n. With the Zoom, so he records a click track and a drum line into the zoom. How's he going to play that back thru cans for the other musicans to listen to while they play to record their tracks in parallel to the rythm? Can't be done with the Zoom, AFAIK.
 
David W. Richardson said:
Why is that, Sergio?
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The problem is the balance between the kick and the other various drums and snares. Everything just sounds unbalanced, unprofessional... This is my personal take, I see you guys do it differently. Also I always assumed there was a laptop with basic audio capturing available on location. Even Garageband would suffice. Using only the Zoom sounds like a very challenging way of capturing a professional sounding recording for a Music Video. I've been producing and directing TVC with original music for some years, and with few resources, the best way to record drums is... to use software, or midi drums. Play them with a drum surface, it sounds better than any live attempt outside of a full multi-mic studio drum recording setup- or a big bucks Live concert recording

The metronome is, to me, a very, very important tool for multi track recording. You can get a free metronome for the Iphone and Ipad, for example, or for your laptop- Garageband, Logic, Protools and all major recording software come with it built in.
 
SPZ said:
Sorry, David, but that way the drums will always sound bad or amateurish.
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Like all universal bits of "truth", not really so.
You can get a fine mix in one with a band. Especially if they do a lot of live playing. Until the mid/ late 50's that was the only way to record.
 
My thoughts... Your school project was to shoot a 4 min music video, not engineer an audio recording session.
While it is admirable to attempt this, I would suggest just doing what was asked for by your teacher.
Pick some music, and then shoot a music video.

All the Best!

Dave
 
To the OP.

Your talking about learning to do two major new things at the same time, both of which are specialized skills that take a lot of experience (and equipment) to do right. I highly recommend you don't do that. It's a classic student mistake to bite off a lot more than you can chew.

So I would either use a recording that the band already has or some other music or just a stereo recording of them. The assignment is the music VIDEO not the music recording. Focus on the video and not the recording.

If you must record it your self then do a "live" version and set up the h4n in the house at a good location and record the show. Monitor and move around between songs if nec to get a decent recording.


----Sorry this came in like piling on. I was typing before the above post and had to go deal with life and when it posted I see it's almost the same as the above.

Anyway that should be a hint. WE have been there and are speaking from experience.
 
Noiz2 said:
To the OP.

----Sorry this came in like piling on. I was typing before the above post and had to go deal with life and when it posted I see it's almost the same as the above.

Anyway that should be a hint. WE have been there and are speaking from experience.
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The same thing always happens when I go for coffee! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
First of all, I have to thank all of you who respond to my question, didn't expect so many responds in such a short period of time.


David W. > I look into your link to talkbass.com, the discussion there seems encouraging. Besides, your video of H4N recording drum session is very helpful, that may just be what I need.


David W., Noiz2 >I am definitely taking your advice to not biting off more than I can chew.


Mitch > Sorry that I don't have a laptop with me now. So I will only consider borrowing a laptop if this setup gives significant better result. Moreover, I talked with the band leader last night and he told me he has dynamic mics only, he told me has tried to use them for recording but the result wasn't good. I will meet them in their rehearsal place tomorrow for the first session, hopefully it will turn out ok.
 
David and Noiz2 hit it on the head, Shutterwill. Keep it simple.

Your project will be better for it.
 
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Hi guys, I have finished the first recording session.
I was grateful to find out their rehearsal place has basic acoustic treatment (foam on wall and ceiling and thick carpets on the floor).
After a few test run, I'm confident enough to give up the idea of using the MS mode.I set the H4N to stereo mode and reduced the onboard mic sensitivity to about 8, the H4N was on a tripod and was placed about 4 feets / 1.5m in front of the drum set
The recording files (44.1 16bit)turned out ok and the band leader was pleasantly surprised with what the H4N can do.

Looks like I'm off for a good start.
 
shutterwill said:
Hi guys, I have finished the first recording session.
I was grateful to find out their rehearsal place has basic acoustic treatment (foam on wall and ceiling and thick carpets on the floor).
After a few test run, I'm confident enough to give up the idea of using the MS mode.I set the H4N to stereo mode and reduced the onboard mic sensitivity to about 8, the H4N was on a tripod and was placed about 4 feets / 1.5m in front of the drum set
The recording files (44.1 16bit)turned out ok and the band leader was pleasantly surprised with what the H4N can do.

Looks like I'm off for a good start.
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Awesome!!!!!!
 
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