HELP! Mixpre D or Juicedlink DT454 for on camera AND occasional "mixing"

J

Jackson Miller

Well-known member
Hi, I have only a few days to decide which to buy. I'm unhappy with the low levels I get from my h4n combined with my various mics I use. I'm also unhappy with/tired of the syncing process even with plural eyes. I have been researching/listening to samples and it seems a preamp device feeding into a DSLR can sound great for some applications.

So I am leaning towards getting the juiced link DT454 mainly because it is a pound lighter, smaller, custom designed to fit under a dslr without being overly obtrusive. The mix pre looks bulky and heavy and like it would be a pain in the a$$. But it's also a professional piece of gear that I would be able to use as a mixer in the future. My priority is ease of shooting with it mounted to the camera though so should I just go with the JL?

Question: For the times that I do shoot dual system audio can I run my mics into the juiced link and then run the amplified signal into my h4n recorder to serve as a cheap mixer/preamp? I suppose it would be going through the mini out jack on the JL and into the mini input on the h4n but will this even work? Is the mini jack on the h4n line level or mic level? I heard since it's meant for instruments it will sound distorted, so would there be a way to just go out of the JL with a simple mini to XLR adapter cable and feed into the XLR on my h4n at mic level?

Sorry, I am not an audio pro and the differences between various levels is a bit confusing but basically, is there a way for me to use the JL as a cheap mixer/preamp into the h4n for the times that I don't go straight into the camera?

And the second question would be, those of you with the mix pre, do you find it manageable to have it attached to the camera and shoot handheld?

Thanks, please respond soon because I have a film shoot very very soon.

JM
 
small note:
field mixers are not supposed to "boost" or "amplify" the signal, more to cut the noise and level the different audio channels.

if you have low levels, boosting the signal should be the last resort, not the first.
 
Yeah but I'm talking about using the preamps on the mixer to improve the signal to noise ratio and make it sound louder while keeping the noise floor or hiss or whatever you wanna call it, lower. However you want to say it. Because the preamps on the h4n aren't cutting it for me.


Anyone?
 
Jackson Miller said:
Yeah but I'm talking about using the preamps on the mixer to improve the signal to noise ratio and make it sound louder while keeping the noise floor or hiss or whatever you wanna call it, lower. However you want to say it. Because the preamps on the h4n aren't cutting it for me.
Click to expand...
1) As previously said, you have to get the best out of the mic at first, before boosting the sound.
Personally, I'm running the mic into a JuicedLink, then into a portable recorder. But you must know the basics of microphone placement before, otherwise you'll boost the poor signal that will feed the recorder. If you can't get decent results with the minimum, then you should check the techniques a little more to get better results.
2) The H4n (Zoom in general) is well known to have a noisy internal preamp. If budget isn't an issue, get the Mix Pre-D instead. Not that JuicedLink stuff isn't good, but just because they're meant to serve different purposes.
 
i think your trying to change too many variables at the same time. the field mixer would not really make the recorded audio louder unless you add gain on the mixer and leave the gain on the recorder, that's amplifying the signal twice.

removing the gain from the recorder and adding gain in the mixer will result in a cleaner quality audio that you may boost slightly in post but would be about the same level when recorded.

choosing the type of mic and mic placement, may give you better results. level the recorder(recorder or camera) to 0(no boost or gain) and adjust the level on the mixer.
 
I consider myself fairly knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to mic placement and booming. My mic placement is optimal (within 1-2 feet in most instances). Despite this fact the h4n has lousy preamps and in conjunction with the rode ntg-2 specifically, which isn't as hot as some other mics, it is known to give you audio that needs to be boosted significantly in post.

So we are straying from my initial questions.

1) Is the mixpre to bulky/heavy/annoying to use on a minimalistic DSLR rig?
2) How specifically would I hook up the juicedlink to the h4n?

@drapeama - What audio recorder do you feed into?
 
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Jackson Miller said:
I consider myself fairly knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to mic placement and booming. My mic placement is optimal (within 1-2 feet in most instances). Despite this fact the h4n has lousy preamps and in conjunction with the rode ntg-2 specifically, which isn't as hot as some other mics, it is known to give you audio that needs to be boosted significantly in post. [...]
1) Is the mixpre to bulky/heavy/annoying to use on a minimalistic DSLR rig?
2) How specifically would I hook up the juicedlink to the h4n?
@drapeama - What audio recorder do you feed into?
Click to expand...
1) I'm not an expert either, but I think I know some basics, which are the most important. Learning is the key though.
2) Mic placement seems very good, you should get the best results available. As the NTG-2 is very directional (more than other shotgun I've used, like the Azden SGM-1x) so you shouldn't pick up much room noise or echo. I've done another video recently where I've done the Voices Over using the NTG-2, sat at my computer while recording directly in Vegas 8.0. The sound is really good (normalized) and it actually didn't picked up the computer. I was holding it at 1feet or a little more (to avoid peaking) when recording.
3) The Zooms are well know for their noisy preamps, but so far I don't find the NTG-2 to be much "quiet" compared to other mic that have a more "hot" signal. It simply needs to record close to the source and be normalized in post.
4) The MixPre-D would probably be a little big to carry on a DSLR rig, unless you'd carry it in a bag like a sound man, with the XLR wires plugged...but that wouldn't be the best solution.
5) What I do is simply to output from the JuicedLink with the 3.5mm cable and use the ExtMic or Line-In connection in the recorder. The short lenght of the 3.5mm isn't enough to pick up interference while recording. Never had any issue using that setup previously.
6) I'm actually using the Tascam DR-05 (entry-level recorder) and I've been using the Zoom H2 previously. Sold the H2 to get the DR-05 (simpler to use, simply. And I gave a deal to a friend to get the H2 for 80$ shipped).
 
I have already posted a thread on this very question. After a little research my answer to this is very simple. The Fostex DC-R302. It's not out yet, but very soon I think:

http://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/....html?oscsid=e0459d08484ac9077242a675cc2a11c4

Should have excellent preamps as well as being a recorder with 3 inputs, not two. Has a mounting point for DSLR's like the MixPre-D (though both stupidly block the battery compartment door on these kind of cameras).

One other thing, ignore the fact that the web site have mounted it backwords on the DSLR in the photos, (obvious these people don't have field experience) still seems like it offers a lot of robust options for your needs.
 
Thanks so much for chiming in yoclay. Your thread was actually part of what made me consider switching to recording in camera. Sorry if this thread is redundant.

Regarding the Fostex, it seems like it could be the perfect solution indeed, but I converted the price listed on that site to USD and it comes out to $1500. That's a lot. Wasn't the whole juiced link vs. sound devices thing about saving money for you? I'm not too familiar with fostex, how are the preamps? Also the fostex doesn't seem to have XLR out. That kind of limits its potential, doesn't it? Although I guess since you can do the mix and record all in one device, the only thing it would limit you from doing would be to feed into a real video camera with an XLR port. It'd be possible with adapters though right?

The other thing is it's still pretty big. Is it smaller than the mix pre? I hope it is at least lighter. The battery compartment blockage thing sucks.

WOW just found this: [TABLE="class: mainPage, width: 100%, align: center"]
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[TD="width: 100%, align: center"][TABLE="width: 100%, align: center"]
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[TD="width: 100%, align: center"][TABLE="width: 1100"]
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[TD="width: 100%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="class: main"]"Remote Start function allows the DSCR camera's video recording start and stop in sync with the press of REC button using
infra-red or wired connection."[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
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[/TABLE]
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[/TR]
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[/TABLE]


If that means what I think it does then this thing will make recording externally and synching soooo easy. There will be the exact right number of audio to video clips and every clip would have the same start and end points as the audio already without messing with plural eyes.


Still though, $1500? If that is the price I'll have to seriously think about weather or not that's within my budget. I may have to just rent a juiced link for my upcoming shoot while I wait for the fostex to come out and hear more. If it's under $1000 then I'll most likely get it.
 
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Hi Jackson,
It looks to me around the size of a Beachtek. I wouldn't go by that pricing on the UK website either. I don't think the pricing has been really declared yet. That looks like a guess-timation of a MSRP for the UK, probably the most expensive market out there. By the time it hits the streets in the US I think it will be much more reasonable. Otherwise, yes, it really seems to hit the sweet spot.
 
Jackson Miller said:
...WOW just found this: [TABLE="class: mainPage, width: 100%, align: center"]
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[TD="width: 100%"][TABLE="width: 100%, align: center"]
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[TD="width: 100%"][TABLE="width: 1100"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: main"]"Remote Start function allows the DSCR camera's video recording start and stop in sync with the press of REC button using
infra-red or wired connection."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
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If that means what I think it does then this thing will make recording externally and synching soooo easy. There will be the exact right number of audio to video clips and every clip would have the same start and end points as the audio already without messing with plural eyes.


....
Click to expand...
Don't count on it. While audio and video may roll at very close to the same moment, I think it is very likely that there be a few frames discrepancy, just because of the lag time it takes the device to respond and start after it gets the 'go' signal. I'll bet dollars to donuts you'll still have to refine the sync manually.
 
Yeah I wondered how it could be exact. Well it's better than nothing I suppose.


I really do hope that pricing is significantly off. I found something from a while ago saying the rumored price might be $800. That would be great. I'll probably sell my zoom if I get this with will offset the price a bit.
 
I just found some stats.

Apparently it's just about equal in weight to the mix pre-d and slightly wider, taller, and longer. So it still doesn't offer the portability of the juiced link.

Yoclay/others, do you know how many tracks you can actually record? Two or three? Would it be possible to feed two lavs and a shotgun in and keep the lavs "panned" to opposite sides to keep them separate? I don't even know what that means and it makes no sense to me that you could separate a mono track two two separate recordings in post but I read a thread describing the process with another mixer. Could that be done with this? Otherwise what's the benefit of three inputs mixed to two recorded tracks?

Thanks.



 
Here are the supposed stats for anyone interested/more familiar with the technical stuff. Hows it look?:


Quoted price from a manufacturer was $1099 CAD which is like 1050 USD but who knows.


Product Overview:
The DC-R302 is a stereo SD card recorder with 3-ch audio mixer designed most suitable for
DSLR video recording, which has become very popular for professional video production. Using
the DC-R302 will minimize and simplify the onsite video recording unit allowing the camera


operator to operate the audio recorder at the same time.
Main Features:
· Stereo SD card recorder with analog 3ch audio mixer
· A detachable camera-mount on the top with position adjustments
· 3 x tripod screw holes on the bottom for mounting on a various camera rig
· Remote Start function allows the DSCR camera’s video recording start and stop in sync with
the press of REC button using infra-red or wired connection.
· Compatible with off the shelf wired remote controller (Panasonic DMW-RS1 or equivalent)
· Each input accepts MIC to LINE level offering Limiter and HPF
· 48V Phantom power allows use of condenser microphones
· Mic Out equipped in addition to Line Out to send stereo mix to the camera
· Headphone monitoring with selections of Left / Stereo / Right / Return
· Auto Slate Tone (1kHz / sine wave) function convenient for subsequent synchronization
· Recording Stereo WAV file in 16bit - 44.1/48kHz or 24bit - 44.1/48/96kHz to SD(SDHC) card
· USB connector for file transfer as well as USB audio for PC recording and live streaming
· Powered by 4 x AA batteries (in a detachable battery case) or external DC (9 - 24V)
· Robust but light weight chassis made of extruded aluminum


· Also usable as an independent portable mixer/recorder by detaching the camera mount
[/left]
INPUTS & OUTPUTS
INPUT 1 - 3
Connector: XLR-3-31 (female, #2 hot) / electrically balanced
Reference Input Level: HI -60 / MID -55 / LOW -50dBu (Mic), -10dBu (Line)
Maximum Input Level: HI -32 / MID -27 / LOW -22dBu (Mic), +10dBu (Line)
Input Impedance: more than 10k ohm
Phantom power: P48V+-4V (10mA/CH) (Mic)
RTN IN
Connector: 3.5mm dia, stereo mini (unbalanced)
Reference Input Level: -10dBV
Maximum Input Level: +2dBV
Input Impedance: more than 10k ohm
MAIN OUT
Connector: RCA Pin / unbalanced
Reference Output Level : -10dBV (at reference level input & -12dBFS signal)
Maximum Output Level: +2dBV (at 0dBFS)
Load Impedance: more than 10k ohm
MIC OUT
Reference Output Level: -50dBV (at reference level input)
Maximum Output Level: -30dBV
Load Impedance: more than 10k ohm
REMOTE
Connector: 2.5mm dia, 4-prong mini
PHONES
Connector: 3.5mm dia, stereo mini
Load Impedance: more than 8 ohm
Maximum Output: 50mW (at 32 ohm loaded, THD less than 0.1%)
USB
Connector: Mini B type
DC-IN
Connector: DC inlet
PERFORMANCE
Frequency Response
LINE IN – MAIN OUT: 20 – 20kHz +-1dB (at reference level)
MIC IN – MAIN OUT: 40 – 20kHz +-3dB (at reference level)
Signal to Noise Ratio (LPF 20kHz + A-WEIGHT)
LINE: more than 95dB (INPUT GAIN -10dBV)
MIC: more than 55dB (INPUT GAIN Max / 150 ohm loaded)
T.H.D. (LPF 20kHz)
LINE: less than 0.01% at 1kHz (INPUT GAIN: LINE)


MIC: less than 0.1% at 1kHz (INPUT GAIN: HI)
Power Requirement
Internal Battery: AA x 4 (alkaline / NiMH ) / Rated range DC4.8 – 6V


External Power: AC adapter or equivalent / Rated range DC9 – 24V
Dimensions
152 (W) x 45 (H) x 107 (D) mm w/o camera mount
152 (W) x 52.5 (H) x 107 (D) mm w/ camera mount
Weight: approx. 690g (excluding batteries)
 
recording into a dslr?
don't do it. as much as a portable recorder may not be a "professional" piece of equipment, it was still made to record sound. dslrs are not.

get the mix-pre in front of your zoom, you'll be happy.
 
sonofaresiii said:
recording into a dslr?
don't do it. as much as a portable recorder may not be a "professional" piece of equipment, it was still made to record sound. dslrs are not.

get the mix-pre in front of your zoom, you'll be happy.
Click to expand...
Thats my advice as well. On board sound on the DSLRs is like on board flash for photography. They suck, get it off the camera!
Stick with Sound Devices, they one of the best in the industry for a good reason. Go with the MixPre-D as it has some cool other features like the USB out and driverless connectivity that you may find useful in the future. Im not a fan of the H4n, but with a MixPre-D in front of it it will sound better. Other options to consider would be the Sony PCM-D50 or PCM-M10, or even better the Marantz PMD661.
 
It doesn't sound as bad as you might think, but thanks for the advice. My mind is already made up. Remember, I'll still have an audio recorder (the fostex) for the important/paid projects and features or higher budget shorts where dual sound is more of a necessity.

But I think for filming little sketches and less important things I'll be fine. I don't really wanna argue about that though. thanks. The cool thing is that this fostex is a recorder and a mixer. Also, you couldn't handle two lavs and a shotgun or hyper with the mixpre could you? I'd like to be able to do that.

JM

Also, if anyone cares, I just bought a used juicedlink for 300 bucks on ebay to hold me off until I purchase something better. Reason being I need something for my project and I can't find anywhere to rent the jk-dt454, so I just figured what the hell, I'll be able to sell it for about the same when I am done.
 
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Theres at least another option

Theres at least another option

First, sorry for my english, since i not native english speaker.

Second. Mix-Pre D is in another category of equipment, a step up from the beachtech and the juicedlink. Just for the pres and the fact that the Mix-Pre takes AA batteries and not the overpriced 9Vs, would make me choose it. As a proud owner of a SD 302 and a SD744T, I can't talk anything bad about they. Nice pres, nice construction, and works flawlessly.

Back to the Mix-Pre D. It has a digital output, as the name says. So, if you got an recorder/camcorder that has an AES/EBU input, you can simply "jump" across the analog input stage direct to the digital path of the recorder. And, the SD limiter is a gem. If you need, it won't let you down.

The Fostex seen nice, but for me, it's expensive too. For that price i would go for the Audio Developments AD-071. Few things in the land of field sould could par the quality of sound and construction that the AD is acknowledge for (in fact, few preamps, even in the studio world, could par the AD). Theres a reason why something is one of the standards in the movie industry. It's £765.00 (Excluding VAT at 20%) in England. It's pricier arround the globe.
 
Oh! And i found that the H4n preamps are too noisy too. For my handheld/second unit recorder i choose a combination of the Sony's PCM-D50 and the Denecke PS-2. Their recordings cut up nicely with the SD744T. SD 302 + SD744T has a "color", so they nedd some minor EQ to match. It's a shame that Sony have one of the nicest pres in the sub $500 recorder with only a 3.5mm input.
 
I have the mixpreD. I have used a juiced link. The mixpreD is fine on the bottom of a camera... a little big, but not too big of a deal (I actually prefer the weight), and the size actually makes it stand freely better. The build quality is better, the material's are better, it looks pretty, and has a lot of capabilities.

I record audio with a NTG2, an AT4053B, or wireless lavs. My criteria was to have a preamp so I could run and gun with the DSLR recording audio straight to DSLR, have the option to use the preamp as a standalone preamp on a boom (to zoom H4n) and maybe to a computer/mixer etc etc. The juicedlink was not a good as a stand alone preamp. Infact, quite useless AND difficult to use (switches etc).

The mixpred to an H4n is gold. Keep the H4n levels below 10%, and let the mixpred do it's preamp thing at about 8. Beautiful. I got XLR to XLR... I've heard going to the H4n's mini-in makes it even better, but below 10% I am supposedly below the noisy gain filters turning themselves on. Could it be better, sure, but mic skills and better recording locations would probably contribute more than a real $1500+ preamp and better mics. And I personally wouldn't get better mics without a better preamp, and wouldn't get a better preamp without better mics.

The mixpreD to a DSLR is outstanding. Noticeably quieter than the juicedlink. Get the mixpreD's special blue cable too. If you don't have magic lantern, you'll need to kill the AGC by playing a looping white noise tone from a $20 mp3 player taped to mixpreD (like me, when I'm shooting with a Canon 1d4).

2 AA 2600mah rechargable batteries run for about 55 minutes.
 
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