help me to find the right PP (filmic picture profile) !

I

imax

Active member
Hi, I'd to shoot a sort of adv very cinematic.. filmic..
I know the result depends from many variables but I'd like at the first find the best picture profile for a filmic image.
Can you suggest something to try?
I'd like something like WDR setting of the Canon C100.. so a profile that have a great dynamic range but not too flat because I cannot work a lot on AVCHD..

thank you!
 
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The best way to to deal with a new camera is to set up a well lit scene.

Take the SDI out and send it to scopes and a calibrated pro eval monitor. Even if you have to rent these.

Then start playing around. If you are recording to the internal card you need to be pretty close as it is only 8 bit 420 25mb/s, not a lot of room for CC.

It is worth it to take time doing this, everyone will have different needs. Then as you shoot some location work etc tweak the PPs until they work for you.

These are the settings I came up with they work for me and my clients and are easily gradable, I spent a few months tweaking them after the initial tests, but they were close to start with. I do often record to a NanoFlash this gives you 8 bit 422. Much better for grading but not anywhere near as good as the RAW 2k and 4K the 700 is capable of with external recorders, but that is a whole different way to shoot. When ProRes or whatever popular codec comes out for the O7Q, I will reevaluate my PPs probably based on the Slog2 PP #7. I use that now for RAW 2K in the Odyssey.

So here are my PPs for internal recording. PP2 and 3 are my standards the rest are use a noted in the comments.

FS700 PP.jpg
 
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There is no magic sauce really. I'm very much against the faux log style curves because, as Slog demonstrates, there simply isn't enough latitude recorded in 8 bits to have a one fits all curve. It also depends whether you can treat the image in post.

Sony provide 4 different cine curves and what i've learnt is that the right use for each one can help a lot. If you're inside with controlled lighting the cine1 or 2, if you're outside and need better highlights then 3 or 4. If you shooting high key then Slog in 8 bit will produce good results. There's an article on our blog which graphically shows the curves.

Be careful about messing with black gamma, it can produce results that are difficult to grade despite it *looking* like you're getting more shadow information (you're compressing other places of the curve to do this). Setting the knee too low can create a odd transition on highlights of faces as it tries to electronically roll off the highlights (with a flat line for crying out aloud). So unless you have a really big range i would tend to keep the knee high.

I think most of the PP options are really geared towards ENG and using the footage directly off cam. If you're doing something cinematic then you will need to grade. Having said that, the black level can be useful, you can bring it down because depending on your scene sometimes you never quite hit absolute black and changing the black level allows you to not waste the space in the 8 bit file.

I think one key (b'dum tish - comedy drum roll with that pun) with 'cinematic' footage is appropriate lighting in the first place but then you can get quite far if you stick a film style LUT at the end of a grade (whether it's a plugin like film convert or the kodak print LUTS floating around) and also pay attention to desaturating highlights - coloured clipped highlights are a very video'y artefact.

hth
Paul
 
imax said:
Hi Noah, I'm using this at the moment and from I bought the camera a year ago and.. I like it, but there's a too much green/yellow in the image.. I'd like something warmer and black little less crush.. can you help me to adjust for my taste?
thank you!
C
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Yes I do find it to be a bit green and low contrast. It's all that darn DR. Why not turn down the black gamma and adjust the phase or even the wb offset green/magenta? That's what I do when I match to an FS100 or DSLR. To match FS100 cinematone1 for example you need at least black gamma HIGH, -7 to match FS100's HIGH,+7, and at least COLOR PHASE +3 to match FS100 at -2. I'd say do phase +3 and wb offset m/g +1 or +2 if you are very opposed to a slight greenish cast.
 
I use the AB_Range profile from Abel Cine - generally works for me. I tried Noah's one and Alister Chapmans and both were too noisy for me - probably because they were based on Cine 4 which I find pulls the lower end of the curve a lot to get the highlight roll-off. Personally I think a slightly cleaner look is a bit more 'cinematic' (although the last time I was in the cinema, all the Alexa and Red stuff jumped out at me as it looked very noisy, so....)

But Paul really hits the nail on the head: 'cinematic' is more about composition, lighting and exposure - and the art department! Apologies if I'm about to teach basic egg eating here, but that means:

Frame the shots well, in interesting locations with some depth to them (i.e. not totally blank, have something going on in the background and, ideally, also the foreground) and you're halfway there.

Make sure the frame has a decent contrast in the image: some highlights, some deep shadows - a really flat look generally smacks of 'TV' and the same goes for your cast (get some good contrast on the face) - and try and make sure the light fall across the contours of their face, so they have a more 3D feel i.e. they're not all super flat and/or merging with the background (unless this is what you want!)

Get your exposure right - if the skin tones are off they can be hard to fix, especially avoid over exposing caucasian skin as it is dangerously close to white clip anyway. Although deliberately underexposing the face can work well as it's generally avoided in TV or commercial work (by this I mean, let the face sit in a patch of shadow, rather than have the whole scene underexposed!) but be careful doing this with black skin tones as the face can just disappear.

INT/EXT shots (i.e. interior, with windows) are a real red flag - video cameras just don't handle overexposure the way film does, it generally looks ugly - so you want to avoid major clipping as much as possible.

I find having some of the image at white clip is fine i.e. lighter coloured bits of buildings outside, getting hit by the sun, the stuff you'd expect to be white or near white anyway. Having an entire window blown out is also fine - even having stuff inside that is getting hit by hard sun (real or fake) that would also naturally clip is also okay. But any halfway house situation (some detail, but not much) is generally to be avoided at it shows digital cameras at their worst. Plus as a general rule try and keep those elements that are massively clipping small in frame. If you can't or want to see out the windows you need to either bring the levels of everything up inside (fill, key, everything) and ND or stop down the camera to match the exterior exposure - and/or you need to ND the windows (give them a clean, get a water spray bottle to wet the window and carefully roll the gel down the window - cut the edges carefully with a sharp knife and use a squeegee to push out any bubbles).

Personally I also try and avoid shooting wide open these days. The super-shallow-depth-of-field looks very corporate video/cheap music video to me.

Oh and make sure the actors are decent. A decent performance hides a host of sins.

Oh and decent sound. If you want someone to think you're film is cheap and nasty, get a bad sound recordist.

Oh and a decent script.

Do all that and the rest will take care of itself.
 
thank you all guys!
I try various PP in these days.. and I'll decide what I'll use.
It's not easy because for the next work, even it is big for my client, they want only me on the set.. so I cannot use other person.. and I've to decide all... for this reason I'm quite afraid also because I Know the importance of a good DP, etc.. but I have to fly to other part of the world to shoot.. so I'm trying to understand how I can my better alone!
It's a fashion video but on the set we have only stylist, hair/makeup ..and models! and I'll try to do the best video I can , and the photographer the same...
so.. thank you!

At the moment AB_Range I think is good because is not exaggeratedly flat.
 
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imax said:
thank you all guys!
I try various PP in these days.. and I'll decide what I'll use.
It's not easy because for the next work, even it is big for my client, they want only me on the set.. so I cannot use other person.. and I've to decide all... for this reason I'm quite afraid also because I Know the importance of a good DP, etc.. but I have to fly to other part of the world to shoot.. so I'm trying to understand how I can my better alone!
It's a fashion video but on the set we have only stylist, hair/makeup ..and models! and I'll try to do the best video I can , and the photographer the same...
so.. thank you!

At the moment AB_Range I think is good because is not exaggeratedly flat.
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Don't sweat it too much. You will be fine.

Just pick a profile that looks good in a scene similar to what you will be shooting, or just in general.

The 700 is a great camera and if you use the histogram to set exposure you will be right on. It is easy. Don't forget to white balance. I also set zebra to 105 and then I know if I see any zebra it will be blown. So just set the shot so the zebra is only where you can accept blown highlights. This works great with my PP 2 & 3 as well as 1 & 6.

If it looks good on your eval monitor when you practice (take the time to do this) then it will look good shot on location. You get great confidence by testing with scopes and eval monitor. Learn to set it right then you don't need scopes or eval on location when you are rushing around solo. Not the best way to shoot but I have done solo shoots more than I care to remember, just remember, audio levels, white balance, exposure and most important of all focus. Just run that checklist every time before you push record and you will be fine...
 
imax said:
thank you all guys!
It's a fashion video but on the set we have only stylist, hair/makeup ..and models! and I'll try to do the best video I can , and the photographer the same...
so.. thank you!

At the moment AB_Range I think is good because is not exaggeratedly flat.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd use AB_range in that case or maybe the JRcine or EOS profiles as they're more saturated - you'll want a cleaner look.

Then just shoot everything super slow mo, try and keep a light behind the subject so you can flare the hell out of it, shoot it all wide open, do some macro on the details of the clothes and if you're feeling wild pull the lens of the camera and do some lens whacking. There are no rules in fashion, they just want it to look 'cool'.
 
ok thank you!
...lens whacking ? never done before! I've to try!

other things.. I'm thinking to use a recorder (Odyssey 7Q).. what do you think? It's to much complicated in this scenario or not?

and I think that I'll use mainly a tripod but I'm thinking about a slider to put ground or on a table (etc..) ..non on tripod because I think all became too difficult for 1 person, what do you think?



 
imax said:
ok thank you!
...lens whacking ? never done before! I've to try!

other things.. I'm thinking to use a recorder (Odyssey 7Q).. what do you think? It's to much complicated in this scenario or not?

and I think that I'll use mainly a tripod but I'm thinking about a slider to put ground or on a table (etc..) ..non on tripod because I think all became too difficult for 1 person, what do you think?



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The odyssey only records uncompressed DPX at the mo, which is overkill and unmanageable in terms of file sizes. I'd say a hyper deck shuttle, pix or Atomos samurai or Ninja will be fine. Although if you're not going to do much grading it may be largely redundant.

I use a slider quite a lot - there's no reason why it can't be quick on a tripod - just use a couple of decent monopods on either end to provide support, otherwise it'll see-saw. But if you're shooting super-slow, you don't really need it, hand held looks fine.
 
Odyssey 7Q dont' record at 2K in cinema DNG? I know is heavy but I do not shoot a lot in a day.. I'm thinking about it..
thanks for The slider tips! ;)



Colinelves said:
The odyssey only records uncompressed DPX at the mo, which is overkill and unmanageable in terms of file sizes. I'd say a hyper deck shuttle, pix or Atomos samurai or Ninja will be fine. Although if you're not going to do much grading it may be largely redundant.

I use a slider quite a lot - there's no reason why it can't be quick on a tripod - just use a couple of decent monopods on either end to provide support, otherwise it'll see-saw. But if you're shooting super-slow, you don't really need it, hand held looks fine.
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I still use my NanoFlash 100mb/s on the 700 for best quality HQ std frame rates, this is hard if not impossible to beat for 8bit 422. If I need good quality slomo I use the 2Kraw in O7Q. And I use the O7Q as a monitor whenever I need one on loc.
 
imax said:
Odyssey 7Q dont' record at 2K in cinema DNG? I know is heavy but I do not shoot a lot in a day.. I'm thinking about it..
thanks for The slider tips! ;)
Click to expand...

Ah ha, yes, I forgot. It does the 2K Raw in a DNG wrapper - certainly worth doing if you're going to shoot slow mo. For regular speed I'd worry about aliasing, especially if the clothes have fine lines of any sort.
 
There are some issue with 2k 25p RAW? At 50p?
why aliasing at normal speed? ;(

can you suggest me an alternative camera to rent for this project in order to shoot in 2K RAW AT 25p and 50p ?

I'm thinking about BMCC or Scarlet X but I have not a 50p... (Scarlet only with NEW costly update)

any suggestion? Other cameras?
tnx

Colinelves said:
Ah ha, yes, I forgot. It does the 2K Raw in a DNG wrapper - certainly worth doing if you're going to shoot slow mo. For regular speed I'd worry about aliasing, especially if the clothes have fine lines of any sort.
Click to expand...
 
imax said:
There are some issue with 2k 25p RAW? At 50p?
why aliasing at normal speed? ;(

can you suggest me an alternative camera to rent for this project in order to shoot in 2K RAW AT 25p and 50p ?

I'm thinking about BMCC or Scarlet X but I have not a 50p... (Scarlet only with NEW costly update)

any suggestion? Other cameras?
tnx
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Yup. The sensor OLPF is optimised for 4K so you get extra aliasing shooting in 2K RAW.

Other options would be an F5 or F55 shooting 2K RAW with the 2K OLPF (they're interchangeable, you'll need to swap out the 4K one - I'm not sure who will have the 2K OLPF) or 4K RAW (both do 50/60p in 4K Raw)

Or Canon C500. You can record 4K Raw (4096x2160) at 50p/60p - and 4K half Raw (4096x1080) at up to 120fps - to an odyssey 7q with the Canon licence as I understand (I'm not up to speed on. The O7Q Canon firmware though, so Mitch may ned to confirm). If you can't get an odyssey you'll need two (yes two) Gemini recorders. I'm not sure how much extra aliasing you'll get with the half raw though.

Or an Epic obviously.

Also, I don't think the BMCC does 50p, it's max 30p - and the sensor is not S35mm in size but Micro 4/3rds - so you'll have more depth of field and your lenses will look longer.
 
For me, the most "filmic" PP I have used on the FS700 is S-Log2 as it has much better highlight handling and skin-tones than any of the Cinegammas. Unfortunately, without the 7Q you are limited to 8-bit which limits any heavy grading options. If you keep it low contrast and light on the grading, S-log works decently with the internal codec.

Here's a camera test I did with internal S-Log 2 and I've shot a lot with all the PPs, and S-Log has at the very least 1 stop more of DR than Cine 4, better highlights and no yellowing on skintone highlights (which is really annoying). To me, the yellowing on the skin tones which happens when the highlights are really strong on the skin was pretty un-sightly. Just the fact that S-Log solves this is huge.


Another thing to remember is that Post and how you grade the image has a huge effect on the look. People always go on about the camera, the lighting, the lenses, etc... which is important to achieving a filmic look, but Post is just as important as all those factors. If you know how to grade well, you can make a average image look really good.

Edit: The term "Filmic" is so broad as 35mm has different film stocks which have completely different looks; and then there's 16mm and Super 8mm (which I own and shot on both types of formats) which have a completely different look as well. Maybe I should NOT say the S-Log 2 has the most "filmic" look, but that it has the most pleasing look at least to my eye and aesthetic; but I tend to not do very heavy grades and I like things a bit more low contrast which is what S-Log really plays too.

Also since you brought up the C100. Canon's come with a heavily graded look right out of the camera, AKA "The Canon Look." The FS700 is very realistic IMO and looks much closer to real life than the Canons, so it's up to you to add the look to your footage, whereas Canon just does it for you. The advantage of Canon is that if you like the look, you don't have to grade much. The advantage of Sony is that more flexible on grades because the look isn't so baked in like Canon, but if you're not a solid grader you might not be as happy with the default image from Canon which looks pretty pleasing from the start, but it's hard to get away from. It's easy to spot things that are shot on Canon just because it usually looks very warm and saturated.
 
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