Help me make a decision

V

Vital_Visuals_Inc

Member
Hey-

I have a DVX100a, and I recently purchased an Eclair NPR S16mm camera to shoot a documentary with. I'm having trouble deciding if I like the NPR enough to justify its costs, so help me out here. Tell me which clip is the NPR, and which is the DVX:

www.vitalvisuals.com/anonftp/one.mov
www.vitalvisuals.com/anonftp/talking30i.mov

The DVX footage is 24p right out of the camera, so the footage is 30i. The S16mm is Kodak Vision 500T telecined to a DVCAM tape.

Which clip is the DVX? Which is the NPR? Which looks "better" (realizing that this is very subjective)?

Thanks,
+Steve
 
Re: Help me make a decision

I am not edubacated enough to tell. I wish it was the same subject matter. Hmmmmm....

Is the brunette the dvx? Looks less sharp.

Of course the older woman looked very sharp. Hell, they both look great! :mad:
 
Re: Help me make a decision

The older woman is DVX footage, the woman with the cup is 16mm.
The DVX is sharper, but you can mute it down to match.

-CJ
 
Re: Help me make a decision

I was thinking way too much like it was a trick question.

Im thinking, older chick is sharper... younger is softer.... so younger must be 16! And then I think, well, wait a minute, it is S16, so maybe the older woman is sharper and the must be S16.

Then I see some grain or noise and then and then... Well you get the idea.

They both look great (especially the coloring in the older womans face)
 
Re: Help me make a decision

I'm going to hold out a little longer before I give you the answer.

Here's the deal- I'm doing a doc called "Theologians Under Hitler," which will be shot in Germany mostly. I've got bucks for this, but obviously the cost of shooting the DVX is less than S16. It's not going to be a period piece, but I am going for a look similar to the interviews in the HBO series "Band of Brothers;" classic, soft-box lit stuff.

So, given all that... Imagine that the subjects are old German University professors and the documentary is going to be widescreen 24p for digital TV and DVD, and the look should be cinematic... which clip has the more pleasing attributes?

BTW, the Eclair has a $2500 lens on it- an Angenieux 12-120 that is extremely clean.

+Steve
 
Re: Help me make a decision

The younger woman with the cup is shot on film with the 16mm camera. She looks flat and to my eye "more distant" and filtered through too much glass to the observer. Whatever the camera, I think I'd prefer to see your documentary with the same quality as the first clip. The old woman segment makes you feel like "you are there with her." An important distinction.
Good quiz though... I look forward to the correct answer.
 
Re: Help me make a decision

I'm going to *hope* that the one with the older woman in it is the DVX. If it is, my respect for this camera has, once again kicked up a notch. But do tell, I'm itching to know.
 
Re: Help me make a decision

Definitely the younger woman is film, the older is the DVX.

And you have an S16 camera with an Angenieux 12-120 on it? I was sure the 12-120 doesn't cover S16 -- it should vignette at the wide end of the zoom. If it's the classic Angenieux 12-120 f/2.2, be aware it's not a very good lens -- it was a staple of news gathering, rather ubiquitous, every CP16 and Eclair and Auricon had one, but it's certainly not a $2500 lens nowadays, I think they go on ebay for about a tenth of that. They have a good zoom range but are definitely not sharp.

Angenieux's new HEC lenses are outstanding, quite competitive with the Cooke and Zeiss. If you're going to shoot on S16, and you can afford it, look into getting better glass for your camera -- unless you like the particular attributes of the Angenieux 12-120, which tends to make footage look like '70's news, because that's what they were primarily used for.

They're both great-looking shots, by the way. You could easily add some film-look to get the DVX to match the S16 shot. I found the same results in my 16/DVX comparison -- the motion is identical, but the DVX footage looks razor sharp, so sharp you could cut yourself on it, whereas the 16 has a soft glow to it.
 
Re: Help me make a decision

The commonly referred-to Angenieux 12-120 is an f2.2 lens that doesn't cover the whole S16 frame, whereas mine is an f2.8 that does. There weren't very many of these lenses made, and it's a good piece of glass- no doubt about that.

+Steve
 
Re: Help me make a decision

Drum roll, please...

The first clip, the one with the older lady, is the DVX!; the second with the younger woman is the S16.

The S16 shot comes from a roll of film I shot as a test. It is high-speed tungsten balanced film that shows a lot of grain. The next thing I am going to do is shoot some Kodak EXR 50D (slow, daylight balanced) on some outdoor scenics. Perhaps a post showing the results of that will be fortcoming...

A couple of posts above suggested that I might want to mute down the sharpness of the DVX to match the S16. Which is more desireable: to mute down the sharpness of the DVX, or get rid of the S16 and shoot the whole project on the DVX?

Remember that I'm aiming for an Emmy with this project! I'm aware that sometimes the best look for aesthetic purposes is not necessarily the sharpest, high-res look. I'm running into more and more DPs that are shooting their HD interviews with the lens racked off a bit because HD shows too many imperfections in the subjects' skin.

+Steve
 
Re: Help me make a decision

That was very cool of you to post this for us! Wow! The DVX kicks ass. That is so cool. :D
 
Re: Help me make a decision

[quote author=Vital_Visuals_Inc link=board=Clips;num=1074478877;start=0#9 date=01/19/04 at 04:52:19]A couple of posts above suggested that I might want to mute down the sharpness of the DVX to match the S16. Which is more desireable: to mute down the sharpness of the DVX, or get rid of the S16 and shoot the whole project on the DVX?

Remember that I'm aiming for an Emmy with this project!  I'm aware that sometimes the best look for aesthetic purposes is not necessarily the sharpest, high-res look.  I'm running into more and more DPs that are shooting their HD interviews with the lens racked off a bit because HD shows too many imperfections in the subjects' skin.

+Steve[/quote]

If you're aiming to make a film print, S16 is going to give you the better source to go from.  But if it's primarily for television distribution, like you said, you'd certainly be okay to dump the S16 -- there's really no reason to spend the considerable extra cash on it, unless you're going to be in challenging lighting situations that require the extended latitude, or you're doing extensive slow-motion shots, or you need the shallower DOF.  For your interview shots, a softbox-lit interview on an anamorphic-equipped DVX at 24P is going to look spectacular.

As far as "dumbing it down", well, that depends on what look you're going for.  I'm not saying that you SHOULD do it, but if you want the project to look as if it was shot on film, you might have to.  The DVX look is definitely a hybrid between film and video, but with some manipulation, some softening, maybe a pro-mist filter, and a little grain added in post, you could have a very, very convincing film-looking project.  Out of the box it's not exactly film (I mean, every one of us, with the possible exception of John, correctly picked the DVX footage from the film footage, and that's not even viewing it on a monitor, that's from a web clip). But if you want it to look like film, there's no camera around that can do a better job (in this price range).
 
Re: Help me make a decision

The question I ask (mainly to myself) is, "Which is the RIGHT look for this project?"

It's a tough one. I've spent literally hours comparing the results of my test roll with DVX footage, and it's dang hard to be objective about it. My Eclair is definitely putting the squeeze on my bank account, so the temptation is always there to put it on eBay and cut my losses. But I realize that when you're trying to put out the best product you possibly can, tens of thousands of dollars separate a really great look from a really really great look. It's tempting to settle for really great when it comes from the DVX as cheaply as it does. I'm wondering if the Eclair looks really, really great, or if it just looks great. Does any of that make a damn bit of sense?

This discussion is immensely helpful. Thanks, everyone.

+Steve
 
Re: Help me make a decision

I really prefer the older woman (DVX).

It seems clearer WHILE NOT IN A VIDEO KIND OF WAY.

Even though I was the ONLY one who was too stupid to tell. :D
 
Re: Help me make a decision

Thank you for the test.
I may be old school but the younger woman (film) looked much better.
I don't want to feel like I'm there. The cool thing about film was that it put those crazy silver particles dancing around like you had something in your eyes (dreams state).
Would be cool to see what post can be done to the old lady clip to simulate the feel. Although contrast probably won't be the same.
 
Re: Help me make a decision

It's the "dream state" that I'm interested in here... There's a reason that "Lord of the Rings" was shot on film, not video... Film produces that dreamy suspension-of-disbelief state that helps bring about an intense emotional response. Beta SP, on the other hand, will always look like the news, no matter what you do with it.

I agree with a previous poster that the DVX looks somewhere between video and film. I'm going for a look that will produce a strong emotional response while not making the viewer think the whole thing's fiction. It is a documentary, after all.

I think I'm starting to envision a project in 16x9 that uses film for the scenic shots and DVX for the interviews. I'm starting to think that outside of latitude and DOF, the DVX looks more like 35mm than S16. Impressive. And frankly, I've been able to get some killer DOF out of the DVX!

Enjoying this,
+Steve
 
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