Help me decide...

[tmnt]

I've just watched the trailer.

First thoughts is that the footage doesn't feel like it's from webcams... it looks like we're seeing overly lit video footage and hastily built sets... as it stands now, I wouldn't impulse purchase it.

My thoughts would be to do a couple of things (if you can), change the GUI/onscreen graphics to look a bit more modern/designed and (importantly) degrade and give a 'look' to the webcam footage... even if that's crushing the blacks and adding noise/grain etc. Really try and spruce up the visual side of things.

I'd also look to give each person's web-cam footage a unique style... so, as the viewer watches the story progress, he'she will start to identify the various people's webcams.

It's surprising what some art direction can do to shots - even if it's all post work. Plus (as tmnt says) a much better logo treatment and poster is needed.

I don't know if you have the time to make the changes I'm suggesting... but this might certainly help drive a few more sales.

Excellent points. First thing I thought was the webcam overlay was bad/old and I'd hate to be staring at it for most the movie. Overlay should maybe be black border, 50% opacity and maybe 'recording' or 'cam 1' or whatever in the same or 50% white or grey with a diff colour for each webcam as Derek pointed out.

Poster: All very clean, stylised, white. ECU on a white round webcam which has a lipstick kiss mark on it. Around it we make (barely) out a white desk and chair, black lace panties (mpaa?) hang over the chair, and a knife or something else has to be on desk too that'l explain we're watching a suspense flick.

The poster in my head looks great, so if someone could go ahead and photoshop it, that'd be great.

 

[Derek Chingwell]

Yeah, I realize the footage (shot with a DVX100a) looks too good to be webcams. I may have to consider degrading it.

It was hard to get the GUI done. Given our microscopic budget, I went with the best we had at the time.

I'm not completely sure why each person's webcam image needs a style of its own. It's clear from the person sitting in front of the webcam who's cam we're looking at. We tried to dress each person's room to look different, but considering both rooms were in the same house, that was difficult. At this point, I'm not sure what can be done with the footage we have to make such style changes.

I do wish we'd had an art director.

The point of degrading and messing around with the footage (and giving each a look) is more down to Art Direction... this is where you can play with things and really give a different feel... and this would help lift everything (IMO) - but that's just my view, other might not agree

For me, the footage would need to be overly degraded... more so than in real life (the same way props or sets are 'aged' to make them feel real) - and this would help break the 'camera pretending to be a web cam' idea.

Shame you're not making this now, as it would be great shot on iphones.

 

[Derek Chingwell]

Hi David

OK, as I believe in practice what you preach (not that I'm religious), but there's always too many opinions on forums without much to back them up... so I've done a quick mock up of a poster for you.

Basically, the idea is to make an intriguing poster and an idea that sites with it... such as the broken lines above the logo that help bring the centre of the page and also how we introduce a little flavour of the story by using message elements. Also, when we then break up the style, Shannon is 'lost' as is here message (ie it's falling away). We could easily elaborate and extend this (to have more messages), but I didn't want to spend too long on it!

Note that all can be changed - i just took a basic 'design' stab at the whole thing and tried to put something together that was professional and would make people want to click through to find out more. Poster design with typography is something I've done in the past (alongside many things) and i thought it was apt for this project, as the visual styling needs a helping hand.

Everything can change - smaller and larger etc... this is only a WIP_001a - I'd normally work with the client through quite a few versions, but i was hoping this would help clarify what I was talking about earlier... it's been just over an hour, so I'm calling it an extended coffee break (well, tea break, I am a Brit!).

Best

D.

 

[David W. Richardson]

Poster: All very clean, stylised, white. ECU on a white round webcam which has a lipstick kiss mark on it. Around it we make (barely) out a white desk and chair, black lace panties (mpaa?) hang over the chair, and a knife or something else has to be on desk too that'l explain we're watching a suspense flick.

I appreciate the input, but the poster you describe seems a bit too lurid for my taste. The movie itself has its sexy moments, but it's primarily a suspense/drama. The main audience is women, and I'm not sure a poster with a lipstick mark and lace panties would resonate with the typical female audience member. I think something more in the vein of a 'Lifetime' movie would be more appropriate.

 

[David W. Richardson]

The point of degrading and messing around with the footage (and giving each a look) is more down to Art Direction... this is where you can play with things and really give a different feel... and this would help lift everything (IMO) - but that's just my view, other might not agree

For me, the footage would need to be overly degraded... more so than in real life (the same way props or sets are 'aged' to make them feel real) - and this would help break the 'camera pretending to be a web cam' idea.

Shame you're not making this now, as it would be great shot on iphones.

I completely agree about the need to degrade the footage to make it more webcam-like.

Iphones would have been cool. But it is what it is.

 

[tmnt]

10-4. Derek's poster looks pretty nice, very striking.

 

[David W. Richardson]

Hi David

OK, as I believe in practice what you preach (not that I'm religious), but there's always too many opinions on forums without much to back them up... so I've done a quick mock up of a poster for you.

Basically, the idea is to make an intriguing poster and an idea that sites with it... such as the broken lines above the logo that help bring the centre of the page and also how we introduce a little flavour of the story by using message elements. Also, when we then break up the style, Shannon is 'lost' as is here message (ie it's falling away). We could easily elaborate and extend this (to have more messages), but I didn't want to spend too long on it!

Note that all can be changed - i just took a basic 'design' stab at the whole thing and tried to put something together that was professional and would make people want to click through to find out more. Poster design with typography is something I've done in the past (alongside many things) and i thought it was apt for this project, as the visual styling needs a helping hand.

Everything can change - smaller and larger etc... this is only a WIP_001a - I'd normally work with the client through quite a few versions, but i was hoping this would help clarify what I was talking about earlier... it's been just over an hour, so I'm calling it an extended coffee break (well, tea break, I am a Brit!).

Best

D.

I appreciate you taking a 'stab' at the poster. This is very interesting, though I wish it contained at the very least an image of a webcam.

The 'messages' themselves could maybe be a bit more compelling. Shannon's not the one who comes up with the idea, so she wouldn't be saying "Don't worry. We can do this." That's what Taylor might say.

There are actual dialogue lines from the movie that might be good. For instance:

SHANNON: It's not working, Taylor. Why isn't it working?
TAYLOR: We have to find a way to be together.
TAYLOR: So you're sure Alex doesn't know about us?
SHANNON: He's got no clue about the Internet. He thinks a webcam is something Spiderman uses to fight crime.
SHANNON: Oh God, Taylor! What am I gonna do???
TAYLOR: You gotta get away! He's going to kill you one of these days!
SHANNON: I can't live this way anymore.
TAYLOR: Oh my God! Shannon! NO!!!!

Not all of those lines, of course. And there may be more that would work well too.

 

[David W. Richardson]

Also, I should point out that Shannon doesn't know that someone is secretly watching her. There is no point in the story where she would say, "There's someone here!"

 

[tmnt]

We don't have ESPN Dave

 

[Derek Chingwell]

We don't have ESPN Dave

Or even ESP - LOL

 

[Derek Chingwell]

Also, I should point out that Shannon doesn't know that someone is secretly watching her. There is no point in the story where she would say, "There's someone here!"

I appreciate you taking a 'stab' at the poster. This is very interesting, though I wish it contained at the very least an image of a webcam.

The 'messages' themselves could maybe be a bit more compelling. Shannon's not the one who comes up with the idea, so she wouldn't be saying "Don't worry. We can do this." That's what Taylor might say.

There are actual dialogue lines from the movie that might be good. For instance:

SHANNON: It's not working, Taylor. Why isn't it working?
TAYLOR: We have to find a way to be together.
TAYLOR: So you're sure Alex doesn't know about us?
SHANNON: He's got no clue about the Internet. He thinks a webcam is something Spiderman uses to fight crime.
SHANNON: Oh God, Taylor! What am I gonna do???
TAYLOR: You gotta get away! He's going to kill you one of these days!
SHANNON: I can't live this way anymore.
TAYLOR: Oh my God! Shannon! NO!!!!

Not all of those lines, of course. And there may be more that would work well too.

Bit of a rush here. so short replies

Lack of web cam image is intentional... looks too much like Hal from 2001.

Dialogue was just to give an idea - I have not seen the movie or read the script... all this was just uit together to form a design considered image (as tmnt pointed out, we're not psychic ... and I don't have ESPN on cable either

The notion was to show what design does and how that can sell something for you. The weakest ideas can be sold well if the posters work (look at Corman's stuff)... so I was simply doing a quick digital scamp for you... one that had a new logo and and design treatment.

On Shannon's line, I was using some artistic licence to add drama

 

[capitalP]

The problem is the marketing. No matter if it's on Amazon or Vimeo or both, if people don't know it's there then they won't find it.

I did 'work on building' an audience. But there's only so much you can do without spending a lot of money, and what I did didn't work. I pushed it as hard as I could through social media like Facebook. But my efforts didn't result in sales or rentals. At least not very many.

This is the problem all indies face. It's so tough without that proper marketing. But you can't give up. I would say keep pushing it for at least a year and then move on. Because if success happens with the film it will not be over a month or 2 or 3...

Though fixing the poster, logline, clips and such won't help much as far as getting people to watch, it also will not hurt, but you will have the same exact problem you have now even after those things are fixed, which is getting people to notice the project.

Good luck buddy and stay positive.

 

[David W. Richardson]

Bit of a rush here. so short replies

Lack of web cam image is intentional... looks too much like Hal from 2001.

Dialogue was just to give an idea - I have not seen the movie or read the script... all this was just uit together to form a design considered image (as tmnt pointed out, we're not psychic ... and I don't have ESPN on cable either

The notion was to show what design does and how that can sell something for you. The weakest ideas can be sold well if the posters work (look at Corman's stuff)... so I was simply doing a quick digital scamp for you... one that had a new logo and and design treatment.

On Shannon's line, I was using some artistic licence to add drama

Personally, I don't mind the webcam image looking like HAL -- at least that's a subliminal connection to a VERY successful movie franchise. But that being said, there are plenty of other images of webcams that don't look like HAL. Here are a bunch -- https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...0QAaNtXNyoA?p=webcam&fr=yfp-t-901&fr2=piv-web

One thing I do like about the current webcam image is that it looks sinister.

I understand about the dialogue. The overall concept looks good, but again -- target audience isn't men, it's women. 'Tangled Web', for all its dependence upon technology, is essentially a love story with a tragic ending. (An ending nobody so far has seen coming.) So I feel like the poster needs to reflect that on some level. Not that our current poster does either.

I'm seriously thinking about putting a version of the movie on Vimeo with a password, and letting some of you -- particularly you, Derek -- watch it so you will have a better idea of the overall story. I'll let you know by PM if I do that.

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[David W. Richardson]

This is the problem all indies face. It's so tough without that proper marketing. But you can't give up. I would say keep pushing it for at least a year and then move on. Because if success happens with the film it will not be over a month or 2 or 3...

Though fixing the poster, logline, clips and such won't help much as far as getting people to watch, it also will not hurt, but you will have the same exact problem you have now even after those things are fixed, which is getting people to notice the project.

Good luck buddy and stay positive.

Agreed. Marketing is the most difficult thing, even with a marketing budget. It's almost impossible without one.

This movie has been on Amazon Instant Video since November 2010. During that time I have made a total of $49 in sales and rentals. Which is abysmal, of course.

You're right that a better description and better poster won't change anything on their own. But if I'm able to find a way to drive traffic to my Amazon listing, then a better description and better poster may make a lot of difference in convincing them to take a chance and rent or purchase the movie. So if I can improve those two things, I need to do it.

Once I got 'Tangled Web' on Amazon, I tackled Facebook. I'd had no interest in FB before this, but decided it was the best way to get the word out about the movie for free. I've been able to accumulate over 1,000 FB 'friends'. I promoted the 'Tangled Web' page to all of them, and have only 305 'likes' -- some of whom are not among my FB 'friends'. So Facebook didn't turn out to be the marketing goldmine I'd hoped it would be.

So now I've got to find other ways to get the word out about the movie. Always open to suggestions!

 

[Derek Chingwell]

Personally, I don't mind the webcam image looking like HAL -- at least that's a subliminal connection to a VERY successful movie franchise. But that being said, there are plenty of other images of webcams that don't look like HAL. Here are a bunch -- https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...0QAaNtXNyoA?p=webcam&fr=yfp-t-901&fr2=piv-web

One thing I do like about the current webcam image is that it looks sinister.

I understand about the dialogue. The overall concept looks good, but again -- target audience isn't men, it's women. 'Tangled Web', for all its dependence upon technology, is essentially a love story with a tragic ending. (An ending nobody so far has seen coming.) So I feel like the poster needs to reflect that on some level. Not that our current poster does either.

I'm seriously thinking about putting a version of the movie on Vimeo with a password, and letting some of you -- particularly you, Derek -- watch it so you will have a better idea of the overall story. I'll let you know by PM if I do that.

Thanks again for all your help!

Just a few thoughts - I've seen your image (on your posts) fro a long time now, and never clocked through - I always presumed it was some SF thing, really because of the 'Hal' type image. I know 2001 is a big name (although it was a flop at the time it came out), but on one hand you say you want to appeal to women and on the other you're happy to ride on the back of a SF image... having mixed ideas like this (or the lack of a single/clear marketing & sales vision) is the downfall of many projects.

Webcam images - fine, there are loads of them, but the only way you'll get something to work is if you find an image first and build an idea around it - not vice versa.

What I will say is you still seem to be pretty much attached to the images/logo/look (and content) as you have it now... so working with a designer that will bring fresh ideas (and work outside the box) might not be right for you, as you're pretty much defining the limiting parameters of the box... I'd suggest writing a design brief as that might well help to focus your ideas more (and will really help in keying into important elements).

In terms of a 'female-centric' version of the mock up I did, that's actually pretty easy and is a colour based thing - black is ominous and oppressive -white is neutral and good fro pastels... and white/red is a classic combo I was just working on black as it seemed more logical.

I've also been giving it some thought and I'd spend a bit of time doing a website... nothing amazing, but something that will follow the design style of the poster (whatever it ends up being)... so, using the text 'strips' idea you can have some characters introduced and utilize parts of the story... really, like an interactive 'teaser' - with the hidden easter egg actually being the trailer itself.

Having a website to link to and help create awareness, can only help... and it's not that hard to do.

OK, I have to get back to animating CGI superheroes leaping around now, so I hope my posts have been of help!

 

[David W. Richardson]

In the interests of brevity, I'm not quoting from your post.

You're right that the webcam image that I use here on DVXUser is more masculine, but so are most of the people here. Honestly, I felt like it was an advantage on DVXUser if the movie hinted at being a SF thing.

You'll notice the webcam image on the poster is not as prominent, but it's still there because, after all, webcams ARE a major part of the story. But the main part of the poster shows the people, which I hope counterbalances the image of the webcam. I'm not saying the webcam should be central to the poster, but it does seem relevant since the entire movie revolves around the use of webcams, and is seen from the POV of webcams. But the story isn't about the technology -- it's about two people in love who are dealing with an impossible situation. That needs to be strongly conveyed in the poster.

I've found that most of the people who have rented or purchased 'Tangled Web' have been women, and their responses to it have been strongly positive. I want to market to that demographic. But I don't subscribe to the belief that all women are 'warm fuzzies'. Women aren't turned off by elements in a movie that are technology-related -- they're just not going to be as interested in a movie where the technology is the focus, rather than the people. I need the right balance of humanity and technology if my promotional materials are going to appeal to women.

I had a website at one time, but eventually abandoned it in favor of a Facebook page. The website has the same problem that the Amazon listing and the Facebook page have -- they're only good if you can drive people TO them. I probably do need a more effective Facebook page for the movie than the one I currently have. And a better way to get people to see the page, 'like' the page, and share the page. It's easier to get people to a Facebook page than it is to get them to a website, in my experience. And the most awesome website in the world is no good if nobody sees it.

But the bottom line is still the same -- finding a way to drive that traffic ultimately to Amazon, and then getting them to purchase. (Or rent.)

All of that doesn't mean I'm "pretty much attached to the images/logo/look (and content)" as it is now. I'm certainly open to change if that change is an improvement. But it needs to be the kind of change that will reach my target audience and motivate them. As to the 'content', there's very little that I can do to change the content at this point, without going through another editing process, then removing the current movie from Amazon and uploading a new version and going through that whole process again. Which I'm certainly willing to do if it would result in improved sales, but I'm not sure at this point that it would.

While there are things that we professionals will see and say, "Oh, that could be made better...", the typical audience member might never notice. The bulk of the feedback I've gotten on the movie thus far has applauded the story. Only one person has said anything about the images looking better than an actual webcam, and no one has commented about the look of the GUI. The movie may be technically imperfect, but it resonates with the people who have seen it. My main goal is to get more people to see it -- and pay for the privilege.

 

[Sol M.]

So Facebook didn't turn out to be the marketing goldmine I'd hoped it would be.

The funny thing about gold mines: the gold doesn't just pour out.

20 posts on your FB page in over 3 years and every single one is a press release for the film. There is zero engagement with others and you're surprised they didn't head to your Amazon video in droves?

"Build it and they will come" does not apply to building an audience.

For small indie productions, the best thing you can do to "market" your projects is to spend time making real connections with people that would be interested in the type of projects you create. Over time you will have a group of people ready and waiting for your next project. But that's the thing-- it takes time. You can't just say "tried it, didn't work," and abandon it. More often than not, the delivery format (i.e. Facebook, social networks, etc.) is not the problem, it's the message-- your message. If you're not getting the desired response, then you have to change your approach until you start connecting with people, otherwise you're just shouting into an abyss.

Here's a practical first step to start making connections on FB: Search FB for groups that would be interested in your film (e.g. you alluded to Lifetime movies), join the group, start engaging in discussions. Do not promote your film. Be a human and talk to others. No one likes someone who just talks about themselves-- this is about building relationships. When others have a connection with you, they'll be more interested in your project when you tell them about it down the road. They'll check out the film because of the connection, but they'll (hopefully) stay for the content.

 

[Barry_Green]

In today's world, NOTHING moves product like a positive review. Posters don't matter (much), the existence of a trailer doesn't matter (much), but if someone you know says "this is great, try it" then you're vastly more likely to try it...

How do you sort the wheat from the chaff? There are probably a hundred thousand different no-name no-budget indie films on Amazon. I've got two hours. I could spend them kayaking, or watching "Gravity", or reading a NYT bestseller, or I could watch endless cat videos on YouTube for free... so why would I want to spend those two hours (and two dollars) on some no-name no-budget indie film on Amazon? Your job, as producer, is to CONVINCE ME that it's worth the investment of time.

You can make an interesting poster, but so can everyone else. You could make a great trailer, but only if the footage is there, and a trailer is an art form in itself.

So how do I make the decision as to whether to bother with a film or not? I get a lot of recommendations from this board; when a lot of people say how magnificent a film is, I throw it in my Netflix list. Or if it's a big-budget production, I head over to RottenTomatoes and/or IMDB to see what the end users are voting it as.

So I went to IMDB. You have five votes -- three are a "10", one's a "5", and one's a "2". Now, I'm savvy enough to know that those "10" ratings are bogus, those are either from you or your mother or your co-star. Here's a hint to any filmmaker posting their own film on IMDB -- NEVER give yourself a "10", it just looks fake. Give yourself an "8" and I might believe it's a legitimate review, but a top-heavy rating of "10" just screams desperation and vote-rigging.

So we have two potentially legit ratings, one is a 5 and the other's a 2. That's not promising. Further, there are zero reviews. Not from users, not from newspapers, not from festivals, not from anywhere. That all combines to say to me "pass."

(Note -- you don't have to like any of this feedback, I'm just sharing what I do when looking up a film I've never heard of before).

If I was on the Amazon page, I'd see that there are zero customer reviews. And while there's a link to the 7.4 on IMDB, which does seem promising, like I said above -- if I click it and look at it, it looks bogus.

So what do you do? Find people who liked it, and ask them to give you an honest review. Fake reviews do nothing for you, and won't help your future films either. Identify your audience. See who liked it. Maybe you aimed it at women, but maybe women don't like it? Of the two votes on your IMDB page that I think might be legit, one of them was a "2", and the IMDB stats show that was from a woman aged 30-44. The "5" was from a male aged 18-29. Both seem like prolific voters, as you have two votes from "Top 1000 voters", and the average is 3.5, meaning that yeah, it's the "2" and the "5". That's not much to go on, but it's at least something.

You need reviews, and you need to learn if the film's any good. Make a deal with people -- make a Vimeo with a password, and post it here with the condition that everyone who watches it, has to leave an honest review in the vimeo comments. Only the first 100 or so get to see it for free. Leave it up until you get 100 views, then take it down, and evaluate the comments. If 95% of the viewers say "yuck", then ditch the idea of ever selling it -- just make it free on youtube and hope for adsense hits. If 95% of the viewers say "this was pretty good", then -- you've got something. Put those comments in your advertising. Put them in your trailer. Put 'em on your poster. Ask them to put those reviews on Amazon and on IMDB. Ask them to tweet about it.

If people genuinely like something, they'll share that.

 

[capitalP]

In today's world, NOTHING moves product like a positive review. Posters don't matter (much), the existence of a trailer doesn't matter (much), but if someone you know says "this is great, try it" then you're vastly more likely to try it...

How do you sort the wheat from the chaff? There are probably a hundred thousand different no-name no-budget indie films on Amazon. I've got two hours. I could spend them kayaking, or watching "Gravity", or reading a NYT bestseller, or I could watch endless cat videos on YouTube for free... so why would I want to spend those two hours (and two dollars) on some no-name no-budget indie film on Amazon? Your job, as producer, is to CONVINCE ME that it's worth the investment of time.

You can make an interesting poster, but so can everyone else. You could make a great trailer, but only if the footage is there, and a trailer is an art form in itself.

So how do I make the decision as to whether to bother with a film or not? I get a lot of recommendations from this board; when a lot of people say how magnificent a film is, I throw it in my Netflix list. Or if it's a big-budget production, I head over to RottenTomatoes and/or IMDB to see what the end users are voting it as.

So I went to IMDB. You have five votes -- three are a "10", one's a "5", and one's a "2". Now, I'm savvy enough to know that those "10" ratings are bogus, those are either from you or your mother or your co-star. Here's a hint to any filmmaker posting their own film on IMDB -- NEVER give yourself a "10", it just looks fake. Give yourself an "8" and I might believe it's a legitimate review, but a top-heavy rating of "10" just screams desperation and vote-rigging.

So we have two potentially legit ratings, one is a 5 and the other's a 2. That's not promising. Further, there are zero reviews. Not from users, not from newspapers, not from festivals, not from anywhere. That all combines to say to me "pass."

(Note -- you don't have to like any of this feedback, I'm just sharing what I do when looking up a film I've never heard of before).

If I was on the Amazon page, I'd see that there are zero customer reviews. And while there's a link to the 7.4 on IMDB, which does seem promising, like I said above -- if I click it and look at it, it looks bogus.

So what do you do? Find people who liked it, and ask them to give you an honest review. Fake reviews do nothing for you, and won't help your future films either. Identify your audience. See who liked it. Maybe you aimed it at women, but maybe women don't like it? Of the two votes on your IMDB page that I think might be legit, one of them was a "2", and the IMDB stats show that was from a woman aged 30-44. The "5" was from a male aged 18-29. Both seem like prolific voters, as you have two votes from "Top 1000 voters", and the average is 3.5, meaning that yeah, it's the "2" and the "5". That's not much to go on, but it's at least something.

You need reviews, and you need to learn if the film's any good. Make a deal with people -- make a Vimeo with a password, and post it here with the condition that everyone who watches it, has to leave an honest review in the vimeo comments. Only the first 100 or so get to see it for free. Leave it up until you get 100 views, then take it down, and evaluate the comments. If 95% of the viewers say "yuck", then ditch the idea of ever selling it -- just make it free on youtube and hope for adsense hits. If 95% of the viewers say "this was pretty good", then -- you've got something. Put those comments in your advertising. Put them in your trailer. Put 'em on your poster. Ask them to put those reviews on Amazon and on IMDB. Ask them to tweet about it.

If people genuinely like something, they'll share that.

Preach!

 

[David W. Richardson]

Barry, let me say a word or two and then I will go off and calm down.

I have NEVER rated my own movies, either on Amazon or IMDB. To me that would be tantamount to cheating or lying. I don't try to rig numbers. I just don't. Maybe that's what 'smart' or 'savvy' people do, but it goes against my integrity.

My mother never even SAW 'Tangled Web', and she's dead now so she never will. (Thanks for reminding me.) If she had seen it, and had known how to go on IMDB or Amazon and give it a rating, yes she probably would have been very positive. But to my knowledge, no one in my family has rated the movie either place. And I have no friends to speak of. So if there were three ratings of 10, then they were legitimate, as far as I know.

Maybe I'm just not dishonest enough to be a filmmaker.