HDV or DVCPro-HD

M

meddesigner

Active member
Hi

Well it looks like we are moving to one of the HD formats and I am looking for a bit of advice as to which will be most beneficial to my organization. With few exceptions cost is not really the issue as is quality and flexibility.

We shoot medical training videos and some short form stuff. Think Trauma Life in the ER (which our ED was featured in) or Resident Life (which was also our hospital). The training videos are about 10-12 minutes finished.

SO

1. HDV or DVCPRO-HD? I am leaning toward the latter. I keep hearing things about how HDV is harder to edit or there will be more rendering time. At the end of the day I want good quality and flexibility

2. The P2 thing does not bother me. For how I shoot and edit P2 would end up saving me time and it would not be a hindrance either at 720p or 1080i. The cost while expensive does not bother too much either. Time and flexibility are more important.

3. As far as 720p vs. 1080i any preferences? Why choose one over the other?

4. The cameras. Right now I am lean toward the HVX. But I have also looked at the HDV options. The whole tape thing just about talks me out of it and I really do not want to tote around an extra hard drive like a FireStore.

5. Has anyone seen any output from any of the commonly discussed cameras? Comments.

6. Delivery? We currently use DVD and streaming but could also use WMV-HD on DVD-ROM or something else. Any ideas on how to deliver HD content to a wide audience?

7. Monitoring? I was thinking of either a Sony Luma, this new Panasonic LH1700W or a Apple 23” with Black Magic SDI-DVI converter. Ideas?

8. I am thinking of getting the Kona LH-HD or a Kona 2. Possibly a Black Magic HD card. Ideas?

9. Hard Drives? Looking at a Huge System 1.2T Fiber Channel RAID.

We just want to make the right choices for the future. We do not mind spending 25k+ on gear but we only want to do it once for the next few years. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks-
Richard
 
If cost is no object, then yeah, DVCPRO HD is the obvious choice. HDV is, in my opinion, still a band-aid format destined for the consumer world. That's a lot of compression if quality is important to you, and especially if you do any compositing.
 
meddesigner said:
1. HDV or DVCPRO-HD? I am leaning toward the latter. I keep hearing things about how HDV is harder to edit or there will be more rendering time. At the end of the day I want good quality and flexibility
Click to expand...
The format is only one part of the decision process. DVCPRO-HD is a superior format to HDV, but if the camera itself doesn't do what you need, then it would be unwise to buy something just because of the format. If you need a shoulder-mount ENG-style camera, for example, you can only get that in high-def with HDV, not DVCPRO-HD. So make sure that the camera itself works for you.

2. The P2 thing does not bother me. For how I shoot and edit P2 would end up saving me time and it would not be a hindrance either at 720p or 1080i. The cost while expensive does not bother too much either. Time and flexibility are more important.
Click to expand...
Then you're gonna love P2. Consider that a FireStore can give similar flexibility to both the HVX and also the HDV cameras as well.

3. As far as 720p vs. 1080i any preferences? Why choose one over the other?
Click to expand...
Depends to some degree on where you plan on airing your work -- some networks air 720p, more air 1080i, 720p is the EBU's recommended format for Europe, etc. With HDV, you have to choose one or the other; with the HVX you get both in one camera.

One consideration for you, if you decide to go the HDV 720p route, is whether you need the "reality" look (i.e., the look of live TV/news/etc). HDV 720p cannot currently record that. HDV720p, as currently available, does 24p or 30p, but not the requisite 60p for the "live" look. On the other hand, if you want film-looking footage, 1080i HDV doesn't offer 24p. The HVX offers all of the above (720/24p, 720/60p, 1080/24p, 1080/60i) but doesn't have long-form cheap tape recording.

4. The cameras. Right now I am lean toward the HVX. But I have also looked at the HDV options. The whole tape thing just about talks me out of it and I really do not want to tote around an extra hard drive like a FireStore.
Click to expand...
Sounds like the HVX is ideal for you then.

5. Has anyone seen any output from any of the commonly discussed cameras? Comments.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've seen footage from all of them (although the HVX footage is from an early prototype, and only 1080i). There are many of us who have seen footage from the Z1, FX1, and HD100, and some have seen the XL H1 and the prototype HVX. Final comments would have to await some side-by-side comparisons. All can deliver a superb picture. I, and many others, have commented about the HVX footage in other threads, but suffice it to say that we were very, very impressed.

6. Delivery? We currently use DVD and streaming but could also use WMV-HD on DVD-ROM or something else. Any ideas on how to deliver HD content to a wide audience?
Click to expand...
WMV-HD is the only distribution system that is capable of reaching a wide audience right now, but it necessarily restricts the audience to watching DVDs on their computers (there are a few WMV-HD-capable DVD players out there, but probably not 1/1000 of 1% of the installed base of DVD players).
 
When it comes to compression in the DV format my understanding is that it's 5X by the time it hits the cam corder tape and 10-20 times more by the time it hits a DVD in mpeg 2.
What are your estimates for HDV and DVCPRO-HD by the time it hits the HD disk? Is the total compression less in one vs. the other? Obviously HDV compresses more before it gets to tape, but does that result in less compression in the second stage?
 
The question would be, what HD disc? The only distribution for HD right now is the Windows Media file and the HDVCR (which really no one owns). The battle rages on.
 
Yeah, people keep mentioning the idea of an Avel Linkplayer, which is a fine enough tool by all reports, but does that represent a distribution strategy? Consider that the installed base of DV cameras to Linkplayers is probably somewhere on the order of 10,000 to 1 (i.e., for every one household that has a LinkPlayer, there are probably about 10,000 households that have DV cameras). Yet does anyone attempt to distribute their programming on DV tape?

Right now, and for the foreseeable future, WMV-HD is about the only way to distribute content to any sort of installed base (and, doesn't the LinkPlayer support WMV-HD DVDs anyway?) Even after blu-ray and/or HD-DVD players are on the market, it'll be years and years before they have a substantial installed base, probably at least 5 to 7 years before they reach 50% market penetration.

The only real problem with WMV-HD distribution is: does anyone want to sit at their computer to watch HD content?
 
Barry_Green said:
If you need a shoulder-mount ENG-style camera, for example, you can only get that in high-def with HDV, not DVCPRO-HD. So make sure that the camera itself works for you.
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Since money isn´t an issue, as meddesigner stated, he could buy a varicam - shoulder mount DVCPRO-HD hehehe
 
Barry_Green said:
Even after blu-ray and/or HD-DVD players are on the market, it'll be years and years before they have a substantial installed base, probably at least 5 to 7 years before they reach 50% market penetration.
Click to expand...

I hear you, but having the PS3 with Blu-ray coming is going to help the sale's curve at its start. Now, if Microsoft could just put away their corporate selfishness and install blu-ray into the upcoming XBOX-360...
 
Well, yes, it may. But let me ask you -- how many of you PS owners regularly use your playstation as your home DVD player? Is it a lot? I mean, I know one kid who does, so I guess it's not unheard of, but it doesn't seem all that common.

And how many of those PS3 owners are going to shell out for an HDTV to connect their PS3 to? HDTVs have only penetrated maybe 7%, or at the most optimistic, 10% of US households.

Hey, I'm all for anything that can help usher in a transition away from SD and over to HD. As a practical matter, as a guy who makes and distributes video for a living, I'm saying I don't see any reasonable distribution model for HD content to consumers yet, and if I was to produce a high-def program for distribution, the only thing on my radar screen right now is a WMV-HD file on a standard DVD. The transition to HD cannot happen fast enough for me, but I recognize it will also not happen any faster than it actually happens.

When the consumer electronics association releases a study that shows 80 million households with PS3's installed, and a survey shows that 70% of those households regularly use the PS3 attached to an HDTV to watch video and film content, well, heck -- I'll be all over that. I just think we're at least half a decade away from those numbers, at least.
 
Barry, change your selling strategy. When selling your HD video, bundle a PS3 with it!

LOL :laugh: :evil:



Sorry! :grin:
 
Barry and all -

Thanks for the input. I have been busy in the ED and with an image database application the last few days and have not had a chance to view the tread. While we are able to spend some cash on this project the Varicam is not in the cards.

I do like to shoot handheld and would love a true shoulder mount HD camera but that would put me in the HDV world and it might become heavy and awkward. The Canon and the JVC look interesting but still not so sure about HDV itself. DVC-PRO HD appears more flexible in the big picture.

Is there anywhere anyone can recommend that I can go to pick up and try these cameras out?

I have investigated the WMV-HD thing and H.264 for Mac users. Could be an option as the stuff we are making demos medical procedures to medical professionals for CME credits. So the main crowd is doctors. I have downloaded a document from Microsoft on WMV-HD. Plus one could make use of Macromedia Director and WMV-HD to create a fairly flexible interface in addition to being able to quiz people on the material, which could report back to a database the score the viewer made.

Also is there a good way to set up a hand held rig for the HVX or DVX with a shoulder mount or something?
 
..not to mention that most peoples garden variety PC cant really handle a constant stream of WMV HD at any reasonable quality unless its a pretty late machine off the shelf.

DVD is it for now as far as distribution.. its not about distributing with better res. its about distributing with better content. get a film in the theatres if you want to have it showen hi res or film out.. and how do you do that? .. well, better content.
 
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