HDCAM or XDCAM HD.. which one?!!!

A

aboammar

Active member
Hi everyone .. :)

I was deciding to go with Sony CineAlta HDCAM F900R for my top quality TV advertising production, but some friends recommended to go with Sony XDCAM HD 700, because its price is FAR lower, and the picture quality is similar. Is that true?? If yes, why the huge difference in price? If not, is the quality difference noticeable?

I was recommended as well to use Wafian Direct-to-Disk HD video recorder with CineForm codecs to achieve better picture quality than recording straight to tape with F900R, or Disk with the 700. Is that true also?? and how?

Finally, can I use Letus adapter with either cameras to get better DOF?

I appreciate any feedback or help ... :thumbup:
 
Same here. Another option would be to use the PWD-700 with a FlashXDR to use the 700's 2/3" full HD head but capture in either 100Mbps MPG2 or even uncompressed which I think the FlashXDR is, or will be able to do using all cards in a RAID configuration. That would compete even better to a F900 but I don't know anything near enough about the F900 to know what other differences lie beneith...
 
I wish I could help you with more than speculation because I've never used either camera. I'm not sure how many of us here on this board could since really the class of the EX1/EX3 is much different (this is the XDCam EX board, after all, not XDCam HD).

I would say the biggest difference between the two (and that adds money to the cost of the camera) is the the 900R has a tape drive and the 700 is tapeless (optical, rewritable media).

Here's a good thread on the two: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdcam-hd-cinealta/137922-f900-pdw-700-please-help.html . There's probably many more than this...Google is your friend.

Like GuyB said, paired with a Convergent Design FlashXDR the 700 is essentially a tapeless 900R (in-camera the 700's datarate is not equal to the 900R's). I would personally get the 700 + FlashXDR and use the money I saved to get some awesome, high quality lenses.
 
Thanks people for your feedback. DanHD .. work hard, and who knows what could happen in one day :)

GuyB .. very interesting idea you provided .. thanks .. I will consider your idea very seriously, but I need more details. I never heard of FlashXDR before, so, is it similar to Wafian Direct-to-Disk HD video recorders? If yes, which one offers better quality?

Adam, if GuyB idea will transfer XDCAM HD 700 into tapeless F900R with same or better quality, including higher color sampling rate for greenscreen, then that more could I want? I will difintly go with this setup if it works.
 
The F900R is a $70,000 camera head that records to tape in an 8-bit, 3:1:1 HDCAM format. To complete your system you'd need an HDCAM deck, which will set you back another $30,000. So you're looking at $100,000 for a complete system, and even then it's still 8-bit and not even 4:2:2. It can record 1080i at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i and 60i. No variable frame rates, no slow motion, no 720p. Unless you really NEED tape, or your clients specifically demand an F900R, I can't see why you'd go this route when there are better products available for much less.

The PDW700 is a $30,000 camera head that records to disc in an 8-bit, 4:2:2 MPEG-2 format. But it only shoots 1080i at 50i or 60i, and 1080p at 25p and 30p. No variable frame rates. It does do 720p at 50p and 60p. An XDCAM-422 disc deck costs $22,000 so you're looking at about half the cost ($52,000) vs. $100,000 for the F900R.

There are other options you might want to look at as well. There's the Panasonic HPX3000, a $48,000 camera that does 1080 at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i, and 60i, basically a better camera head than the F900R but at half the price and recording to a 10-bit 4:2:2 recording format (AVC-Intra). You don't need a deck for this, just maybe a card reader ($2,000) and a couple of cards ($1800) so total system price would be around $52,000. Half the cost of the F900R, about the same cost as the PDW700 system.

Or, there's the VariCam 2700, which costs $40,000 for the camera head. It does 1080 at 24p/25p/30p/50i/60i, plus it does 720p at any frame rate from 1p to 60p. So it does slow motion and fast motion, which none of the above models do. It uses the same cards and reader as the HPX3000. But its 1080i/1080p footage won't be quite as sharp and detailed as the other cameras on this list.

Also, there's the Red One. A complete system can be built for around $30,000 and it'll produce images that rival or exceed any of the cameras on this list. If your primary purpose is digital cinema style footage acquisition, then it might be appropriate for you to consider. If you want to do live field production and news and sports coverage, then any of the others would be a much better choice, but for simulating the film look the Red One would be certainly a strong contender for your dollar.
 
you cannot purchase a working viper, only rent, and why would u want one anyway? chris nolan dropped it back off at the rental house after 24hrs of shooting because of the endless cables needed to record the full rez of the camera to hard drive arrays. the viper has been far surpassed in compact high end imaging. tgv has been focusing on DI/post workflows as its future, not image acquisition. the viper ads in AC every month have all but disappeared in the last 18 months. Even Arri has cut the D-21 team in half in the last year, and has begun to re-think their digital imaging ideas as well, although arri has such a large market share in high end filmmaking on every level from light bulbs to laser 4k scanners, so its not as big of a deal for them.
 
If you want to buy a viper, get a Sony F35. That's basically a viper for sale. However, it's somewhere north of $250,000 so it might not be practical in comparison to these other products.
 
Thanks for that reminder Barry...my vote goes for the Panasonic HPX3000. I forgot that the Sony 700 doesn't do variable frame rates like the EX series. And the 10-bit AVCIntra is a nice touch.
 
GuyB said:
The FlashXDR is a portable HD-SDI recorder that records to Compact Flash media. It has 4 CF slots.
Check it out here:
http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_FlashXDR.htm

It is a very popular device for those looking for maximum quality by bypassing the high compression levels on many cameras.
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Thanks for the link GuyB ... I did some search, and it seem Wafain products will produce a much better image quality than Flash XDR, so I am going with Wafian HR-F1 .. here is its link:
http://www.wafian.com/HR-F1.htm

Thanks for your help ..
 
Barry_Green said:
The F900R is a $70,000 camera head that records to tape in an 8-bit, 3:1:1 HDCAM format. To complete your system you'd need an HDCAM deck, which will set you back another $30,000. So you're looking at $100,000 for a complete system, and even then it's still 8-bit and not even 4:2:2. It can record 1080i at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i and 60i. No variable frame rates, no slow motion, no 720p. Unless you really NEED tape, or your clients specifically demand an F900R, I can't see why you'd go this route when there are better products available for much less.

The PDW700 is a $30,000 camera head that records to disc in an 8-bit, 4:2:2 MPEG-2 format. But it only shoots 1080i at 50i or 60i, and 1080p at 25p and 30p. No variable frame rates. It does do 720p at 50p and 60p. An XDCAM-422 disc deck costs $22,000 so you're looking at about half the cost ($52,000) vs. $100,000 for the F900R.

There are other options you might want to look at as well. There's the Panasonic HPX3000, a $48,000 camera that does 1080 at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i, and 60i, basically a better camera head than the F900R but at half the price and recording to a 10-bit 4:2:2 recording format (AVC-Intra). You don't need a deck for this, just maybe a card reader ($2,000) and a couple of cards ($1800) so total system price would be around $52,000. Half the cost of the F900R, about the same cost as the PDW700 system.

Or, there's the VariCam 2700, which costs $40,000 for the camera head. It does 1080 at 24p/25p/30p/50i/60i, plus it does 720p at any frame rate from 1p to 60p. So it does slow motion and fast motion, which none of the above models do. It uses the same cards and reader as the HPX3000. But its 1080i/1080p footage won't be quite as sharp and detailed as the other cameras on this list.

Also, there's the Red One. A complete system can be built for around $30,000 and it'll produce images that rival or exceed any of the cameras on this list. If your primary purpose is digital cinema style footage acquisition, then it might be appropriate for you to consider. If you want to do live field production and news and sports coverage, then any of the others would be a much better choice, but for simulating the film look the Red One would be certainly a strong contender for your dollar.
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Thank you Barry for the details .. I think I will skip the F900R and might go with XDCAM HD ... but I need in-camera full HD slo-mo (over crank, and under-crank). Which Sony cameras will do this? I like Sony brand, so most often I will go with a Sony camera, however,I might consider Red One, but I still do not have full information about it, and its work-flow. I appreciate if you can provide more details about it.
 
Just wondering ... why the EX1, and EX3 carry the legendary CineAlta 24P brand, and not the XDCAM HD 700??:huh:
 
The EX1/EX3 will do 'most' everything you'd ever want at a fraction of the cost. The quality of the image is up there with models you mentioned, they do under/overcranking like nobody's business, tapeless and disc-less so there's no insanely expensive decks you need, very mobile, etc. Depending on the type of stuff you'll be shooting, the only limitation would be perhaps the CMOS response to bright flashes and whip-pan skewing. But if you're shooting a commercial with carefully planned shots knowing the pros and cons of your camera (and that includes any camera), it shouldn't be a huge issue. Rent an EX1/EX3 and shoot all kinds of various footage and watch it on a decent 55" plasma screen... just make sure you tape your socks around your ankles first because the footage will certainly blow them away. That goes for your underwear too.
 
Hi Buck .. thanks for your input. If fact, I just got my EX3 yesterday, and I am playing with it as I write this. So far, I am loving it, and I think I can do alot with it :)

I am planing to shot "everyday" TV commercial with it, however, for top-quality commercials, I most often will need a full-size HD camera because I believe top-quality comes with bigger cameras, with bigger image sensors, correct me if I am wrong.

Beside that, the EX3 slo-mo function is not at full HD, only at 720P ...
 
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aboammar said:
Just wondering ... why the EX1, and EX3 carry the legendary CineAlta 24P brand, and not the XDCAM HD 700??:huh:
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I think the the XDCAM HD422 was originally made for Broadcast TV, it was used in the Beijing Olympics. The 24P option will be available this summer/fall. There's a special promotion planned to be offered by Sony:

The idea is:
with a purchase of a PDW700 camera this fiscal (April 2007 through March 2009),[FONT=&quot][/FONT]end user has the option to purchase the 24p software option (CBKZ-FC02) and receive a $1500 mail in end user rebate. The option software must be purchased by September 30, 2009 to receive this rebate.

The problem is: The PDW-700s are so backordered! We had to propose and install PMW-EX3s to our customer's studios and setups over the 700s because of delivery times.
 
It still not clear to me: why the 700 dose not have slo-mo, when the smaller, lower price EX3 have it (at 720 though)?
 
aboammar said:
It still not clear to me: why the 700 dose not have slo-mo, when the smaller, lower price EX3 have it (at 720 though)?
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Maybe its a marketing thing again. Conflicts with their other model sales. The new HDCAM HDW-650F doesn't do 30P.
 
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