HD100 vs HVX200 vs XL H1 vs HDFX

magji2000

Member
Now I've been following this subject closely because I plan to make the jump into the HD Market. With so many offerings its kind of hard to make a choice, but after much research and thinking I think I have a choice on which to go with. Here are my opinions and why I think this model is the best of the bunch.

First off let me eliminate the HVX200. I mean seriously what is Panasonic thinking. This is by no means a competitor here I mean most people who get this types of camera are in the Industrial, Event and Low end professional video market and format wise this is like having a Lamborghini in a Honda body, meaning its balance is a little off making its maximum everyday usablity limited. When I first heard about this camera I way hyped and said this is the best in the bunch even if its a little more expensive and its still kind of a palm camcorder. However I felt this way because I over looked and didn't notice a very important factor which is that this camera does not record HDV (Orginally I tought it did). To me, this is fatal deal breaker. I mean you can only record DVCPRO HD with P2 cards? For most people this is not at all feasible. What is it like 15 minutes for a $1700 8GB card? For most real companies this really isn't worth it. Unless you only do commercial spots and maybe Indie Films, even then, still that's pushing it. And yes no doubt on the quality side its probably the strongest out of the bunch, but the workability of the format is another serious issue, you face challenges with archiving footage (its going to take a lot of hard drive space and DVDs) and not to mention the DATA rate of the footage itself its going to be taxing on a lot of computers to edit. For a busy video company, its almost out of the question, especially at its price point. It might make a great DV camera though, but then again not really worth it.

Now for the Sony FX, well not much to say here, its the older in the bunch so it is lacking in many ways. Still the cheapest so that's a plus, but still its a palm camcorder and with its short comings it might not be the best choice for the long run.

Then we have the XL H1, now this to had me excited. A lot of features and some great options, plus the fact that is uses the canon lenses and the possibility of using my still camera EF Lens. But again a couple of short falls, one no progressive, I mean for the price that this thing is going to cost they couldn't do that? I don't mind if it was 720P but with this you get no P. It does 24 frame interlace, and I really don't know what to think about that too much its kind of good for the look of film motion, but on the other end its still fake and coversion to film wise this could be a problem. I guess this camera is good if you want to stay in the video world, but I like to have the option to go film if I can. Also the canon video lens, never cared to much for the electronic focus on the XL1, but still working wise better then the Sony and Panasonic so not all that bad. Form factor is OK, a lot better then the Sony and Panasonic, but still a half ass sholder mount. And then I really have had bad experiences with Canon's LCD view finders, most times I look at them they suck. I've seen this on all types of thier models from the GL and XL1 to the consumer models. So I don't have to much hope on how this one will hold out. But still all said and done, this camera does look pretty promising it it does sport a lot of great features. It is a hard call for me. But the price is what I am not that hot on.

Finally my choice, the JVC HD100. Now by no means the best camera in every way. It has its fair share of short comings. Like the viewfinder, light sensitivity and a few others. And most of all JVC's quality control, this really scares me to be honest, but I figure if a wait a little bit, then they will better work the issues, plus I had a first run of the JVC DV500 and while I did have their big head clog problem at the time, they did take care of it, the only thing I am worried about is the dead pixel thing, but in fairness I've seen Sony's with them to and as long as it can be masked, then thats not to bad. But is its pluses more then make up for the short comings. Cost is decent, form factor is one of the biggest selling points for me it will sit on my sholder, I am used to pro cameras and in any day of the week a pro camera is better to work with shooting wise then a prosumer style one, fast response and better control. Then is does 720P with after much research over all quality wise (not resolution) I think is better then 1080I just the fact that its a full frame. And HDV, not the best format, but the best HD to work with volume business wise for the most part. So I hope JVC can shape things up because this in my opinion is the best choice business wise and for the money.

Any comments?
 
Hey I have to admit that I was really taken back by this, it killed me because this camera was really in the running for first place.

But I run a business, and business wise, P2 DVCPRO is just stupid in the professional market that most of use who will buy these cameras work in. If you have a high end production company, then maybe this will make a good B roll or back up camera. But if do do a lot of work, then not really worth it considering. Now if you just do some higher end commercials some of the time, then maybe this camera will be for you, but seriously if thats the case, why not just rent a good camera, get everything you want with out the compromise that this camera has, your working high end anyway and you should be able to afford the rental, to me it would make better business sense.
 
ecking said:
shhhhhh! don't mention the hvx not shooting hdv on these boards! they'll kill you for it!

Why would anyone kill anyone over that? That's like being upset that the DVX doesn't shoot VHS-C... :grin:
 
But I run a business, and business wise, P2 DVCPRO is just stupid in the professional market that most of use who will buy these cameras work in.

Do you speak for everyone? Gimme a break. It's all about choice. On paper DVCproHD is superior to HDV. I can't wait to see comparison footage from all the cameras just so I don't have to read posts like this.
 
i'd love to have a lambo in a honda. why do you think so many people rice up their civics?

i don't come out of a movie going "whoa! that movie was great. too bad the FORM FACTOR on that camera was terrible."

i do understand that it's nice to have people impressed by your equipment. but it's not what you have, it's what you do with it. at that rate, you'd still manage to convince clients that they want image quality, not camera aesthetics.

DVCPRO HD > HDV

you haven't done your homework, but i and everyone else on this board forgive you. thanks.
 
therealslimfigge said:
i don't come out of a movie going "whoa! that movie was great. too bad the FORM FACTOR on that camera was terrible."

That's not the point. I had some of these same concerns. But it lead me the opposite way to the Canon. The way I see it Canon, HVX then JVC are my choices. If they fix the cam I may go JVC. The facts are pretty simple for me. I love Panasonic but people do take a pro-looking camera more seriously. If I could bust out the HD-100 on set I bet folks would swarm. I know it for a fact.

I'm a die hard DVX man. I was shooting a flick for Chris Free up here in Chi on my DVX. When the other cinematographer walked in with the XL2 he was swarmed. He became the go to guy simply because he had the better looking camera (but not the better camera). The JVC looks like it could get respect on the set moreso than the Canon or the HVX.

My other real concerns were:

Space: The idea of being able to save 3 hours of footage on a FS versus with HDV, is something I want. I can't deny it. Plus I can buy a 500 gig drive versus having to buy a 1tb drive to hold all my footage during editing.

Reality: Yea, I like to think in a few months I'll be all over the big screen. frankly most of what I do goes straight to DVD, so DV master for SD TV, HD Master for HDTV. No problem. If I need an HVX I'll buy one then.

Clients: Honestly I can charge more for HDV. HD's a catch phrase. If I do take a job, I can say we're shooting "HD" and give them the whole workflow speech and I'm as good as in. How did we pick up work with the DVX? You all know, we told everyone we could shoot 24p and make their footage look like film. Worked like a charmed, picked up work from a radio station DJ shooting a short film and a doc. Can you imagine what HDV is worth.

The two things the Canon has over the JVC is 1080i/24f and the lens. If we were buying based on specs and assumption alone, I would probably buy the Canon, under the assumption of better glass and that they won't drop the ball on 1080/24f. I really do want to shoot 1080/24f/p.

I would buy the Panasonic if I could afford everything else meaning an HD deck and all that stuff. With the Canon I'm getting away at 11,000. Think Camera + FS + small HD monitor. Since I'd be using the FS, I wouldn't need a deck for editing or outputting an HD master. The big thing for me too is could use my G4 to edit HDV and not particularly have to go G5. (I'll go G5 anyway if I have the cash).

But then again I have to go back to the Panasonic, true DVCPRO HD. It's a tough decision. But here's the deal breaker: $13,000 for good glass on the JVC. For $13,000 I could have the Canon with all the stuff (again assuming the glass is good). I would only want the HVX if I knew for certain I was going to do a film print. Either way before I decide, I want to know how all the images look, what the lens is like (I'm not freak about the manual lens but it's nice, my main concern is the glass), what's it look like printed to film and what all I'm going to need after buying the camera itself.

Keep in mind I want to shoot 1080/24p for out put to film not HDTV. Also lets keep in mind HDTVs are coming down. I believe in the next few years there will be many more in homes.

-Nate
 
Problem is I do my home work and don't buy into the hype

Problem is I do my home work and don't buy into the hype

DVCPRO HD vs HDV, DVCPRO HD is better no doubt and if you paid attention I noted that. However argue this.

HDV about a 20mbps format, DVCPRO HD 100mbps. I could be a little off but that's the specs I was given, something like that. Anyway that's a lot data.

Now look at the hard drive space that's going to eat up! Hard drive space is cheap now that's true, but at this rate its eating about 5 times more!

Now what about archiving or having a hard copy of my footage? HDV I have a tape, 60 minutes all done ready to go cost several dollars. P2 8GB I get 15 minutes for 1700 dollars, granted I can reuse them, but If I have an all day shoot then what? Almost no one can afford a bunch of these. So maybe I bring a laptop, have two cards and down load it there while I shooting, forget the extra hassle. Still 8GB for 15 minutes is a lot data. Eats up hard drive space pretty quickly. Also S#!T can happen to a computer or a hard drive. Tape is just more dependable especially if you're investing a great deal of money on the shoot. Then what, burn the DVCPRO HD footage to a DVD for archiving. This can be a pain in the @$$. I have to setup the burn, it takes time, manage the files on disk, extra work here that is costing me money. I'll probably spend at least a couple of hours archiving the full day's shoot.

Oh yeah lets edit this footage, yes HDV is not the greatest for editing, but a least the computer should manage it. DVCPRO HD, I don't have the details but in theory I would think that its going to demand a bit more over heard on the computer.

Also as far as editing, I don't know if anyone is developing this, but I would think its possible to make HDV better for editing. If you think about it, someone could make software that converts HDV MPEG2 into a frame per frame base MPEG2 (or Similar) format while separating the audio and syncing it to the video. This would make editing more precise. Just like how we convert DV into MPEG2 just in reverse. And with good software we should be able to get awesome results. Just a thought

Now quality, how much better is DVCPRO HD? It better be dam better, like night and day for it to be worth it. Because if they are even close in most situations in quality, then you have to ask yourself, is it really worth the extra hassle and cost? HDV will be more popular, and developers are going to know this and they will spend time and money to get the most out of it in all areas, software, equipment, and hardware. In the lower end professional market, DVCPRO HD may end up being like M2, a better format at the time then Betacam, but not worth the effort. No in the high end market that's a different story, but we are not talking about that here.

Not to mention that a lot of the HDTV on the market, Plasma and LCDs that people are buying can't even show the full quality of HDTV because they all have their technical issues to over come. The picture isn't even that great even compared to SD CRTs on a lot of these models. But this is what people are buying. Not to mention that cable companies like to compress their stuff and some of it looks like crap when broadcast.

So think about it.

As for me, I play both ways, I run a business on my own, and a work full time doing this kind of work, and in my full time job, I get to play with what I want, currently DVCPRO 50, soon to be DVCPRO HD. I really like the format that panasonic has and that's not an issue for me, but like I said, my problem here is the targeted market, it just doesn't make much sense, that's why I am so disappointed because if Panasonic when HDV on this camera with the specs and HD Formats it can do, then it would have been so great, and the P2 option would be a great plus cause to know I have it if I need it would be cool. But the way it is, this camera looks to be missing a big part of what would have made it so great.

Now in all fairness, in theory depending on the HD output of the DVX200 camera, someone could design a hard drive module that has and HDV encoder built in. Then that would be a huge problem solver, but when and if something like that comes, I think it will take a while.
 
Wow, how many threads on this topic are active? Yeah, making large investment decisions like this is tough. I have my opinion, based on the current info available (I am still leaning towards the HVX), yet at this point that is all anyone has, an opinion. The HVX and the H1 will not be out until December. What we all need is side by side comparision, under varied conditions, to fiqure this out. Right now, we are at the mercy of the marketing departments of these large multi-national consumer electronics manufactures. We are seeing sizzle, I want to taste the steak.

Another thing that I think we should consider is that what is being offered now is just the first generation of pro-sumer HD products. All of them are, in some way, compromises. What I am excited about is the next generation. Well, strike that, I think that we will see some exciting, Version 1.5 cameras. Hopefully, what I stay awake at night dreaming about, the $35,000 IT Varicam, will be among them. I just think that we need to take a breath, and let the dust settle a little bit. Then make our decisions.
 
I'll say this, I'd rather see a good picture shot on VHS than a bad one shot on HD.

Honestly, friend, if you're toiling over the technological differences between interlace v. progressive, interframe v. intraframe compression, tape v. nonlinear (i.e. - hard drive, memory card), and ignoring the more important considerations such as developing a 'photographic eye', then you shouldn't buy any high definition camera.

Each of those four cameras reproduce images differently in the areas of color reproduction and motion characteristics. Those differences exist long before the image hits the tape or card or whatever. As a camera operator, it's necessary to understand the differences and make a choice based on them. (Instead of ruling one out because of the kind of tape it records on or the editing workflow).

The VariCam is $30K cheaper than a CineAlta and many people like it better. See, it's not the higher price that makes a camera stand out. It's the signal processing, and that is an area that Panasonic excels in much more than other manufacturers, at least in my observation.

Let me ask you this. What will a high definition camera do for you?
Can you make pretty pictures with a VHS camera?
 
magji2000 said:
argue this: HDV about a 20mbps format, DVCPRO HD 100mbps. I could be a little off but that's the specs I was given, something like that. Anyway that's a lot data.
Most all of your "facts" presented in your prior three posts are just wrong -- but, I'll only comment on this one, which is also wrong.

720P HDV, in its' current implementation on the JVC HD100 is 19Mbps at 60Fps. As you're aware, while the CCD's in the camera are capable of 60Fps in SD, the MPEG2 encoder cannot handle 60Fps in HD and thus the camera is limited to 30Fps in HD. However, the HDV recording format is still at 60Fps.

So, as I understand it, duplicate frames are recorded as "padding" around the original 24Frames in a 60Frame container. Effectively, after removing the redundant frames upon ingest you would end up with a data rate of roughly 8Mbps. Pretty sad. (Barry? Is this accurate?)

1080i HDV, in its' current implementation on the Sony cameras is 25Mbps at 60fps.

720P DVCProHD, in its' current implementation on the VariCam is 100Mbps at 60Fps. Remove the redundant frames from the 60 and your 24P is only 40Mbps, which is very managable, IMHO.

1080i DVCProHD, in its' current implementation on HDX400 is 100Mbps at 60fps.

*Fps = Frames per second
*fps = fields per second

So, as you can see, 720/24P in DVCProHD creates manageable file sizes. :thumbsup:
 
magji2000 said:
someone could make software that converts HDV MPEG2 into a frame per frame base MPEG2 (or Similar) format while separating the audio and syncing it to the video.
You might take a look at LumiereHD for Final Cut Pro and also the intermediate codec's from Cineform.

magji2000 said:
DVCPRO HD may end up being like M2, a better format at the time then Betacam,
Clearly we live in different worlds. "M2" must have been a tape format from long ago?
Today, "M2" refers to this product: www.redrockmicro.com
 
Nathyn said:
Space: The idea of being able to save 3 hours of footage on a FS versus with HDV, is something I want. I can't deny it.
Okay, but consider this: with the FireStore for the HVX, you should be able to save FOUR hours of 720/24p on it... :laugh:

Clients: Honestly I can charge more for HDV.
Really? It's nearing the end of 2005 and I still haven't had a single client request HD, nor would they pay a nickel extra for it. If you've actually found someone who's actually willing to pay for HDV, and pay more than they would for SD, well, that's great and a good incentive to make the switch. But don't just go off a gut feeling, actually test it out and see if there is such a client base there and if they'd actually pay more.

Can you imagine what HDV is worth.
Well, in keeping with the above paragraph, "imagining" is about all you can do, because the reality hasn't shown it to be worth much if anything. Even in the wedding arena, which is by far the biggest market for independent producers to actually make a buck -- I made a point of asking every shooter I talked to about how the whole HD thing was working out, and every single one of 'em said "I dunno, nobody's asked for it yet."

The two things the Canon has over the JVC is 1080i/24f and the lens.
Not trying to be contradictory, but keep in mind that we don't know *anything* about the lens on the Canon yet. While we do know the JVC's, and we can guess that Canon will deliver a better lens, it's far from a known quantity. One thing we can say is that the manual control on the JVC lens is likely to be significantly better than the manual control on the Canon lens, seeing as it seems to be derived directly from the existing XL2 stock 20x lens. We could also say that the OIS and autofocus of the Canon lens are far superior to the JVC's (because the JVC doesn't have any at all). Other than that, it's all speculation at this point.


I would buy the Panasonic if I could afford everything else meaning an HD deck and all that stuff. With the Canon I'm getting away at 11,000. Think Camera + FS + small HD monitor. Since I'd be using the FS, I wouldn't need a deck for editing or outputting an HD master. The big thing for me too is could use my G4 to edit HDV and not particularly have to go G5. (I'll go G5 anyway if I have the cash).
Okay, this is really puzzling. You say you'll use the Canon because it's less expensive? How? Presuming you're using the FireStore, the HVX+FireStore will be less than $7995, the Canon+FireStore will be around $10,500. If you're basing your choice on affordability, the HVX beats it six ways to Sunday. And you'll never need a deck with the HVX, whereas if you're shooting tape you'd definitely want a deck for the Canon -- and that means another $3,000. And if you want to edit on a lesser computer, you'll find that the G4 will do a lot better with DVCPRO-HD than it would with processor-hungry HDV.

You might have to re-evaluate this cost thing, because the DVCPRO-HD solution is way less expensive than the Canon HDV solution.

Either way before I decide, I want to know how all the images look, what the lens is like (I'm not freak about the manual lens but it's nice, my main concern is the glass), what's it look like printed to film and what all I'm going to need after buying the camera itself.
That's the way you should be looking at it, and those are all questions that we can't answer yet. We should be able to get to the bottom of this in December.
 
thisiswells said:
So, as I understand it, duplicate frames are recorded as "padding" around the original 24Frames in a 60Frame container. Effectively, after removing the redundant frames upon ingest you would end up with a data rate of roughly 8Mbps. Pretty sad. (Barry? Is this accurate?)
No, not accurate. The basics are right but the conclusion reached is wrong.

It's true that HDV samples the original 24 frames, and that it records them within a 60p data stream (which is also what it outputs to analog). So every even frame gets recorded twice, and every odd frame gets recorded three times. It's 2:3 pulldown, but frame-based instead of field-based.

Which led you to your 8mbps conclusion -- and that's the part that's inaccurate. Because MPEG-2 is interframe, and because the recorded frames are exact duplicates, the MPEG encoder can encode the duplicate frames extraordinarily efficiently: basically it encodes just a flag that says "oh yeah, repeat that last frame bit-for-bit." So it takes up practically no bandwidth -- that means that the 24fps mode, even though it's carried within a 60p container, is actually the most efficient compression method for HDV. You get the most bandwidth allocated per pixel in 720/24p HDV than in any other flavor of HDV. That's one of the main reasons why I say that JVC's 24P HDV is the best HDV you'll ever see.
 
Thanks for all your feedback, just to get it straight I never meant to offend anyone, I just wanted to voice my opinions. Over all, all these cameras have sort comings or compromises as David said. But the thing that gets me the most is why, I mean seriously at this price point we should get a little more. But thats just me talking.

As if I can make a pretty picture with a VHS camera, and can do this with any camera. Not to be big headed but with over 10 years of experierence, working from everything from nationally broadcast programs to small industrial projects, this is not something that is to hard for me. I don't know everything and I always have room to improve, but what I want is to get the most out of what I can afford at my price point. I am huge on technical quality because I know I can deliver it. And I often find myself limited by the equipment I use and wishing that it could have done more. In almost all my shooting, I do a lot of ENG stuff, its always the limitations of the cameras that hold me back. Unless of course I shoot on the higher end stuff.

So basically I want the best bang for the buck, what something I can also work with. I plan to do a lot with it, so I need something thats not just on quality but can be a efficient tool too.
 
I see that you guys work hard... I shuted down my PC at 1:30 PM and there were no new threads... at 10 AM there are 18 replys in a new thread! Nice job, great forum!

It is great that Pan, Canon and JVC offer so different cameras: HVX has better specs but a prosumer no shoulder body and no tape; the unbalanced Canon has TC in and out, GENLock and maybe better glass on a servo assisted lens, HD100 has a pro body, poor glass but a pro maual lens. These guys should get together and make a single camera, or maybe sony will do it in the next release...
 
magji2000 said:
First off let me eliminate the HVX200... this camera does not record HDV (Orginally I tought it did). To me, this is fatal deal breaker. I mean you can only record DVCPRO HD with P2 cards?

What are you thinking HDV is horrible. Now thats footage not worth archiving...MPEG2? What were they thinking? It's so CONSUMER! Huh.

If you run a video biz then you will adapt. People want thier spots on HD now-a-days because clients think they need it to stay cutting edge. You have no idea how many times I've ran into this. When I get the HVX I can finally say good bye to the miniDV days for most stuff. Shoot HD on the HVX and charge more for the same basic shoot because it's HD. I know I will be spending more on drives and computer gear needed for a full upgrade. But I can offer HD in house for decent rates. For the first year you could rent the HVX out and make your money back two fold.

As for the p2 card technology... I'm not scared of it, Im gonna roll with it. To me it seems like a great advancement. We all knew it was going to come someday right? Tapes are oldschool. As for archiving, DVD's...Dump the p2 card and burn backup DVD's. Thats all I can say, adapt.
 
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