HD - Elite FFV recorder for HPX300

People should be more careful in their wording. I stand by my previous post because the words were/are inflammatory and offensive. It could lead the uninformed viewers to jumptto the conclusion that Panasonic is gouging people on these cards. There is no basis for this assumption. And it is simply an assumption. I look at these posts as if I were not here. If no one called anyone on the post, it would go down in internet lore.

Please just be more thoughtful to the allegations one makes on these threads. Consider the intellectual value of the post you are about launch.

Best,

Jan
 
I still find my self a bit amused of the constant "rage" against P2 pricing, I'm fairly new in this game but cannot recall there were this much complaining with the tape based formats? Or did folks literally lash out on any sales rep from Sony with their digibetas or Pana for their DvcproHD?

Yes the P2 is a tad expensive if you take the hpx170 pricepoint into consideration(not the 300 or 500), on the other hand what's nice is the fact that I could buy the hp170 for light freelance use and rent a Hpx2700 when I need the extra stuff, without any workflow hassle. Try that with Xdcam...discs, deck and cards.

Or as a friend at one dealer here i Norway stated "well P2 are(like all other pro expensive products..) made to make a living of, can't support the cost of P2 cards? You don't charge enough for your work or should start renting, not owning gear" Of course to be read as a touch of sarcasm, but there are some truth to it to. If your business might make it or break it due to the cost of one or two P2 cards...I don't think it's the P2 price where the issues are. Ofcourse there will always be tasks when you need hours and hours over long periods without offload, then you are back to xdcam and tape again if needed.

But, Panasonic could help this "p2 is overpriced" nag easy if they(the techies..) stripped open a P2 card and explained what's what. A bit like how it's made on discovery, maybe people then understand that they don't just buy a "stupid" memory card?
 
I would be happy to understand as to know " WHATS INSIDE THIS MEMORY CARD TAHTS MAKING 4 SDHC CARDS STRIPPING so hugely expensive ? "
Provided Panasonic would like to reveal it public & later do numerous explanations which surely be difficult. Panny can simply shoot various stages of production & allow the users to understad why P2 cards are sooooooooo expensive.
In days of DigiBetas etc we used to own camcorder & could be happy to make them run for years on relatively cheap media. Players for dumping or editing studios were very easily available on rental so the pinch was for once & one would go on & one for a long time with cost effective tapes.

P2 is a solid state media which alow shooting in field but the ends for P2 content on moving rotating relatively unsafe Hard Disks. SO where does the utility of P2 cards being BULLET PROOF plays a long run game. Today i can still shoot long hours on XDCAM disks but cannot even think of dreaming a similar long run shoot on P2 cards without dumping of P2 cards near by. I love panasonic for its camera but i hate the P2 cards pricing. its time we see media cost dropping steadily but p2 since there is no competition is enjoying the reaping benefits of its sales.

Sony has been having a expensive entry cost but running cost has always been low very very low right now till the ERA OF XDCAM !

I love to have a HPX300 or 500 but can only wish to have better pricings on P2 ards.

I have been told by very many pana dealers in my part of the world that P2 cards are EXPENSIVE & they might become affordable by NAB...I hope to see so.
 
Even if people were given the explanation, they still would ignore and say "P2 is Expensive." I've read several of Jan's posts to know that a lot goes into making P2 Cards. I'm aware of their advantages and disadvantages.

But when you have Express Card adapters that can use cheap SDHC media on the Sony EX series and the new JVC HM100 and HM700 (that shoot native to Final Cut Pro), people seem to wonder why Panasonic hasn't offered a more economical high end alternative.

Yes, I know about the HMC150 and think its a great camera. But I would opt for the HM100 because of the Final Cut native work flow (no transcoding). I would opt for a JVC700 instead of an HPX170 because if you ever need to archive or give footage to a client, it won't break the bank. Yes, Panasonic has the better codec hands down, but I guess people are always more worried about their ability to archive their work than the color space of their cameras.

Also, SDHC cards can be read with ANY laptop or computer. You don't need an expensive 5-card P2 card reader or need to buy an additional laptop with PCMCIA slot for dumping.

It's true that Panasonic caters more to PC than Mac. Everyone wants the perfect camera and perfect workflow, but you can't please everyone.

Me personally, I'm still on the fence between the HPX170 and JVCHM700. P2 Cards & Workflow are the biggest conerns for me. Panasonic has an awesome codec and expensive media. JVC has a bit more of an expensive camera, but cheap media and shoot native for my NLE.

I guess people feel that if they "*****" enough about P2 that the prices will go down. I have yet to see that happen. I don't think P2 prices are ever going to change. When the new 128GB card comes out, that will cost $2500, then the 64GB will cost $1300, and the 32GB $800. It will continue like this on and on no matter what. When they release the 256GB card, same thing, the 64GB card will be $800 and so on. The prices are set, and the only thing that will change is the capacity.

This is something that one just has to accept if you go into the Panasonic workflow.
 
This table may explain the issue:

1238822162.jpg


As it shows, for consumer cameras, the camera costs 50x as much as the memory to record one hour. For prosumer cameras and digital hybrids using standard flash memory, the ratio grows: 150 to 1 for the HMC-150. The memory is less than .7% of the camera's cost.

For the Sony's the recording format is long GOP MPEG2, but only 35Mb/s. Although the SxS is as expensive as P2, it is around 10% of the camera's cost for one hour of recording.

For the P2 cameras, it can be nearly 50% of the camera's costs. For one hour of recording. An event videographer would either need to have an active backup procedure during the event or have invested more than the cost of the camera for P2 cards. The special case of 720Np24 lowers it a bit, but still twice as high as other cameras. And the other cameras are recording 1080p30.

Purchasing an HPX 170 with 4 hours of record would cost over $12k. An EX1 with the same recording time would be $7500. An HMC 150 would be $3300.

The EX1/EX3 has third party solutions that would reduce the memory cost 80%.

If there is an announcement, I doubt it will change P2 prices beyond their current annual reduction. More likely, it would be a Compact Flash adapter for P2 slots.

That will raise the used value of P2 cameras immediately.
 
1. If just like Panny's fare of Price reduction of P2 card thingy then i will buy the less exorbitantly priced 32GB @ 670$ (hope so)
2. PANASONIC as a fact will never ever make a CF or SDHC to P2 slot adopter cox they wont want to loose the enormous amount of profit off of P2 card sales. I will say JAN cox i see SDHC cards prices & wonder what else will make 4 of such cards reach to such astronomical figure as listed on Pana sites. i wish not to have any more lengthy discs again.
3. best of both the world HPX300 10bit 422 mated into FVV10bit 422 or XDR/Nano 8bit 160mbps !
 
We all know P2 format is high priced for prosumer products. They are regular price for professional products. If people didn't buy them they would switch to something else. They must be selling! At least Panasonic makes products like GH1. They jump first. Sometimes it cost early adopters more.
 
In the prosumer space Panasonic brought us wide angle lenses, cine gammas, 24p, etc before the others. They gave us 100Mb/s when everyone else was 25Mb/s. They gave us 4:2:2.

However that was then and this is now. Regular flash memory is faster and larger. And while P2 makes sense for a $20k ENG camera, it really busts the budget on a $8-10k event camera. The HMC150 was a first step. However, with Compact Flash instead of SDHC it could have easily handled AVC Intra 100 or DVCPROHD 100. Or better, AVC 10-bit 4:2:2 long GOP 100.

Reducing P2 costs hurts ENG margins. Besides, P2's will always be more expensive; they have a rugged case and internal circuitry.

What I was just doing is showing why it is considered expensive: the recording media costs half again as much as the camera. Or even as much as the camera.
 
If we used the same type of memory as that in the Compact Flash or SD cards, we could reduce the price somewhat, but the memory that is in the P2 cards is not the same, and the circuity is not the same. They are expensive to build as they are not just memory and the memory that we use is rewriteable up to 100,000 times.

And you are all correct in the fact that currently available memory is faster than it was when we introduced the P2 cards. To abandon the P2 card in the face of customers that have invested in the design and need to have its continuation would be foolhardy. We have customers that have spent millions in the adoption of P2, and we have customers that have only purchased a camera, and to not continue and support the P2 card and grow it, would not be of great service to those customers.

Best,

Jan
 
Dear Big Brother,

In response to your battery mounting questions (back on Page 1 of this thread):

We are in the process of building a back plate for the nanoFlash that will allow the nanoFlash to be mounted to an Anton Bauer Gold Mount adapter plate (in place of the regular Anton Bauer battery.

We already have such a plate for the Flash XDR.

We have a photo shoot for the nanoFlash scheduled for next week.

It is fairly common for professionals to have velcro on the back of their Anton Bauer batteries.

The nanoFlash is so light that velcro mounting is a viable option.

The nanoFlash will also have a option to allow a battery to be mounted on the top of the unit. This battery is a Sony sized battery that will power the nanoFlash for 2 hours or more.

We may also have a "Anton Bauer Battery Sandwich", but this just adds to the cost as it must include an Anton Bauer Gold Mount adapter plate.

Just so you are aware, there is a reason why both the nanoFlash and the Flash XDR do not have an Anton Bauer Gold Mount adapter plate of the front. We use this space for a nice size LCD and user interface buttons.

If we put all of the buttons in a very confined space, to allow room for the Anton Bauer battery, then one could not find the critical record button by feel, or at least it would be much harder to do so.

We purposely spaced out the buttons. One can easily find the Record button by feel.

But, of course, we have a remote control that allows one to start and stop the unit remotely. Our remote controls have a LED to indicate when we are recording.

But, there are other buttons that one would want to use that are not on the small remote control.
 
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Jan_Crittenden said:
If we used the same type of memory as that in the Compact Flash or SD cards, we could reduce the price somewhat, but the memory that is in the P2 cards is not the same, and the circuity is not the same. They are expensive to build as they are not just memory and the memory that we use is rewriteable up to 100,000 times.

And you are all correct in the fact that currently available memory is faster than it was when we introduced the P2 cards. To abandon the P2 card in the face of customers that have invested in the design and need to have its continuation would be foolhardy. We have customers that have spent millions in the adoption of P2, and we have customers that have only purchased a camera, and to not continue and support the P2 card and grow it, would not be of great service to those customers.

Best,

Jan
Click to expand...

All the P2 users expect their investment to be protected. The HMC 150 was a good move to offer alternatives. However,in the under $7k prosumer market, it would be nice always have the Compact Flash or SDHC alternative. P2 is very expensive relative to the cost of the camera's in that price range. If the full 1080p HMC150 successor had a Canon 5D Mark II/SX1-like 45Mb/s record speed, that would be nice.
 
Jan,

Would it be possible to bring the AVC-I out the firewire port so that it can be recorded on a Firestore type device? I understand that it's not implemented now, but maybe you'll consider it for a possible upgrade.
 
the hmc150 was a lot more than just a "good move", it was revolutionary... ccds+avchd+sd card+xlr isn't your typical configuration, and being the first(and only?) company to market that combo must have felt a bit risky for a company as big as panasonic is... i suspect that many hmc150 owners are thankful for the engineering and marketing vision behind that camcorder, and aren't the slightest bit worried about what happens with the p2 scene.

if i was panasonic, i'd be looking hard at the insane resolution numbers that canon has been putting out on their latest consumer camcorders... it's obviously only part of the picture, but it can't be ignored, because of the implications it poses for the upcoming canon prosumer models.
 
While I don't consider the HMC-150 revolutionary, I will just say it is the best prosumer camcorder south of the EX1 in price (I consider the HPX170 above the EX1 because of P2 cost and MxM SDHC availability for the EX1). If I were buying one now...it would be my choice.

"ccds+avchd+sd card+xlr"...since getting my Korg MR-1, I don't consider 48khz@16-bit or even 24-bit adequate. The cameras don't record acceptable audio for my tastes.
 
It would be nice if the HPX300 could offload files via firewire in addition to USB2, mainly because you can have up to a 10 meter cable for firewire400, but only 5meter for USB2 (legal max lengths). I don't mean record directly, just transfer from the P2 cards for starters.

It seems with the ability of the HPX300 to control an external usb drive, the issue of cost of P2 media is somewhat less important. Hooking up a multicard reader via usb, you could transfer to an external sdhc card and give that to your clients.Why are some of you ignoring this very low cost option when discussing P2 price issues? It''s not perfect, but it's a start.
 
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