HD Down rezzed or SD?

R

roro20

Well-known member
I am currently working on a project that will be distributed on DVD in SD. It will never be seen by the end user in HD. My question is... would you shoot HD anyway and then down rez to SD in post or just shoot in SD on tape? Does the down rezzed HD look better than straight 480i native? I would assume with 4:2:2 the HD should look better. Just wondering if anyone has compared- or if anyone has any examples. I'm just trying to make the decision before I spend 3 grand on P2 media!!!

Thanks for your help.
 
If you really only need SD, then I would shoot DVCPro50 to P2. That will give you more color information than DV on either P2 or tape, and definitely look better and have more latitude for color correction.
 
Ditto what THoff said. Of course if you want the flexibility to reframe in post or do frame rate effects go with 720p.

I guess shooting to tape is okay if the 4:1:1 color sampling is good enough, otherwise try DVCPro 50, budget permitting.
 
I did fail to mention that I am working in Premiere Pro 2.0 w/ Aspect HD. DVCPRO50 isn't supported by Premiere, correct?

Thanks for your suggestions.
 
Actually, having done both... I would shoot HD 720P and down-rez. Don't know if you're using Final Cut, but it does a hell of a job (provided you know how to set all the settings properly). The overall look is so much better, honestly. I'm no technocrat, so I can't explain it in 4:2:2 terms, but it simply looks richer, better depth, etc. than the DVCPro50 footage I've shot. Plus, 720P/24P truly gives you a film look -- like really good 16mm film.

Only thing that can throw you here is moraying -- that annoying jitter that can happen with horizontal stripes, window blinds, etc. The highest quality conversion eliminates most, but not all of it.

Best of luck.
 
Will you shoot HD in the near future...

Will you shoot HD in the near future...

You mention in your original post, "before I spend 3 grand on P2 media." Well then for this project, you should look at your potential future ones. If don't see your clientelle demanding HD in the near future, then is this one really worth making that finanicial investment for?

Quality wise though, I'd agree with whomsoever said to shoot 720pN and then down-res in post. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are here, so for starters, if someone wanted to make it HD later on, they easily could. Additionally, if you deliver SD but shot on HD, that gives you quite a bit of flexibility for re-framing in post. You could crop areas of the image and lose no quality instead of having to do a digitial magnification and sacrifice a certain degree of image quality.

cheers.
 
Whathafa said:
Actually, having done both... I would shoot HD 720P and down-rez. Don't know if you're using Final Cut, but it does a hell of a job (provided you know how to set all the settings properly). The overall look is so much better, honestly. I'm no technocrat, so I can't explain it in 4:2:2 terms, but it simply looks richer, better depth, etc. than the DVCPro50 footage I've shot. Plus, 720P/24P truly gives you a film look -- like really good 16mm film.
Click to expand...

What does it mean "richer"?
Did you compare the final results of dvcpro50/720 as a mpeg stream or how did you see that HD 720p is superior?

I am really curious about it, as i am doing a lot of stuff for dvd, but didnt test a direct comparison so far, as it was hard to edit 720p footage in pal land until the edius update...!
 
I nested the 720P/24P movie into an SD 10-bit Uncompressed project in FCPro, got all the settings right (I owe someone else on this site a detailing of those settings), rendered, then I output via an AJA IO board to digibeta. Also used Compressor to create a DVD.

Now, if you're doing a high volume of stuff, you might just want to stick to DVCPro50, because there will be no render-time involved. Also, there's the obvious aspect-ratio difference.

But when I say "richer", I'm talking about the color depth and most of all the blacks. I think I also just like the 24-frame look.
 
The in-camera down rez to DV is not very good quality, compared to how most NLEs downconvert. Even after hearing about that by HVX users, I tried it myself and saw a lot of jaggies and stair stepping. I suppose it's appropriate for a really quick conversion, but not for quality shoots.
 
Whathafa said:
I'm no technocrat, so I can't explain it in 4:2:2 terms, but it simply looks richer, better depth, etc. than the DVCPro50 footage I've shot. Plus, 720P/24P truly gives you a film look -- like really good 16mm film.
Click to expand...
DVCPro50 also uses 4:2:2 color sampling, so there is no color information loss. The frame rate and scene file settings can be used with both DVCPro50 and DVCProHD, so again you gain nothing from shooting in 720 if all you need is SD.
 
Whathafa said:
I nested the 720P/24P movie into an SD 10-bit Uncompressed project in FCPro, got all the settings right (I owe someone else on this site a detailing of those settings), rendered, then I output via an AJA IO board to digibeta. Also used Compressor to create a DVD.
Click to expand...

Hi.

List your settings. always good to see what others are doing.

Thanks.
 
THoff said:
DVCPro50 also uses 4:2:2 color sampling, so there is no color information loss. The frame rate and scene file settings can be used with both DVCPro50 and DVCProHD, so again you gain nothing from shooting in 720 if all you need is SD.
Click to expand...

You do gain in terms of variable framerates and you can use the focus assist in 720 wich can be very useful. I do all the project in 720 24PN and downconvert it into FCP, really good downconvert. I like the use of focus assist.
 
SETTINGS for HD-SD Down Conversion in Final Cut Pro 5.1:
(This is what I used, and it worked REALLY well. There may be others who can improve on it...)

Note: We use an AJA IO board running SDI to a Sony Digibeta deck. Settings may vary slightly if you use something else.

1) EXPORT a straight 720P QUICKTIME FILE from your 720P project (does not need to be self-contained), and close the project.

2) EASY SET-UP:
Select "AJA Io-NTSC US SDI AV 10-bit Uncompressed 4:2:2" (or some equivalent thereof).

3) SYSTEM SETTINGS:
PLAYBACK CONTROL Menu:
PLAYBACK SETTINGS:
RT:Safe
Video Quality: Dynamic
Frame Rate: Full
Pulldown Pattern: 2:3:2:3
Gamma Correction: Accurate
RECORD SETTINGS: Full Quality

4) AUDIO/VIDEO SETTINGS:
SEQUENCE PRESETS Menu:
Edit...
GENERAL Menu:
Frame Size: 720x486 CCIR 601 NTSC (40:27)
Pixel Aspect: NTSC-CCIR 601...
Field Dominance: Lower (even)
Editing Timebase: 29.97
Timecode Rate: Same as Timebase
Quicktime Video Settings:
Compressor: Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2
Quality: 100%
VIDEO PROCESSING Menu:
Render 10-bit material in high-precision YUV
Process Maximum White as White
Motion Filtering Quality: BEST

5) Open a new project in FCP and import your exported 720P project. Place it in a sequence.

6) Click on the Sequence in the menu and go to SEQUENCE top-menu and select SETTINGS...

7) Double check that all the "General" and "Video Processing" settings are correct (should match the above.)

8) Go to SEQUENCE top-menu - RENDER ALL and make sure all items are checked under "Video". Then RENDER ALL, grab a beer, and relax.

9) Always double check your rendered sequence, as FCP can occasionally do funny things with render files. Re-render if necessary.

10) Edit to tape and away you go.
 
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