Hd 24p cam
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Hd 24p cam
You're asking about a comparably-priced camera to match the price of the FX1, right?
Nobody knows anything yet, and if anybody does know something, they're not talking. If the FX1 is successful in the marketplace, Panasonic will certainly respond, as they always have, and I'm sure their response will be excellent -- they're on quite a roll, what with the VariCam, the DVX, and now the SDX... they really are delivering some excellent products.
But what if the FX1 flops? Sure orders are strong initially, but there are many hollywood movies which do great first-weekend box office and then drop off. If the FX1 doesn't continue to sell, like the JVC HD1 has disappeared, then Panasonic may not be in a rush. But if the FX1 is a big seller, Panasonic will most certainly respond. We all hope it's with a 24P camera, and I would really expect it to be, and that's one reason why I tried to compile the "wish list" so that our voices would be heard and Panasonic would see what we want.
The way I look at it is, the FX1 is not the camera I want. Doesn't mean it's not a good camera, because for interlaced high-def video I think it does a great job for the price. But I don't want interlaced, and if I do want high-def, I want high-def I can trust (and right now, because of dropouts and recompression issues, I don't trust HDV). So I'm cancelling the order for a Z1 and instead taking a stance of "let's wait and see."
If you have to buy now, and you have to have an interlaced high-def camera, the FX1 is available now. If you want to make movies and film-looking video, and you don't *have* to buy now, I would pass on the FX1 and wait to see what JVC and Panasonic do.
You're asking about a comparably-priced camera to match the price of the FX1, right?
Nobody knows anything yet, and if anybody does know something, they're not talking. If the FX1 is successful in the marketplace, Panasonic will certainly respond, as they always have, and I'm sure their response will be excellent -- they're on quite a roll, what with the VariCam, the DVX, and now the SDX... they really are delivering some excellent products.
But what if the FX1 flops? Sure orders are strong initially, but there are many hollywood movies which do great first-weekend box office and then drop off. If the FX1 doesn't continue to sell, like the JVC HD1 has disappeared, then Panasonic may not be in a rush. But if the FX1 is a big seller, Panasonic will most certainly respond. We all hope it's with a 24P camera, and I would really expect it to be, and that's one reason why I tried to compile the "wish list" so that our voices would be heard and Panasonic would see what we want.
The way I look at it is, the FX1 is not the camera I want. Doesn't mean it's not a good camera, because for interlaced high-def video I think it does a great job for the price. But I don't want interlaced, and if I do want high-def, I want high-def I can trust (and right now, because of dropouts and recompression issues, I don't trust HDV). So I'm cancelling the order for a Z1 and instead taking a stance of "let's wait and see."
If you have to buy now, and you have to have an interlaced high-def camera, the FX1 is available now. If you want to make movies and film-looking video, and you don't *have* to buy now, I would pass on the FX1 and wait to see what JVC and Panasonic do.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Hd 24p cam
We all want that!
And I've told them that, and many people have told them that. We hope that's what they'll do. I'm really, really hoping they produce an HDVX-100 with variable frame rates and a longer zoom lens... that would be simply superb.
We all want that!
And I've told them that, and many people have told them that. We hope that's what they'll do. I'm really, really hoping they produce an HDVX-100 with variable frame rates and a longer zoom lens... that would be simply superb.
Rogue Crew
Well-known member
Re: Hd 24p cam
I'm still unsure about HD, but I sure wish the Panny was native 16:9.
I'm still unsure about HD, but I sure wish the Panny was native 16:9.
evinsky
Well-known member
Re: Hd 24p cam
Take this for what it is, rumor. But at the HD expo one of the Pany reps said that most likely by or at NAB we will see two new cams. First, a 16:9 Native DVX. No details but I would guess with some other added features as well. Second, an HDV like cam that would record HD Mpeg to SD chips instead of DV Tape. Panasonic can't stand the 25mbs limitation of HDV. By using solid state they can use either a higher or variable bit rate and thus create a superior image. BTW he said that Pany is commited to 24P and the ability to extract it for editing @ 23.98. Personaly I think NAB is optimistic but you never know.
Take this for what it is, rumor. But at the HD expo one of the Pany reps said that most likely by or at NAB we will see two new cams. First, a 16:9 Native DVX. No details but I would guess with some other added features as well. Second, an HDV like cam that would record HD Mpeg to SD chips instead of DV Tape. Panasonic can't stand the 25mbs limitation of HDV. By using solid state they can use either a higher or variable bit rate and thus create a superior image. BTW he said that Pany is commited to 24P and the ability to extract it for editing @ 23.98. Personaly I think NAB is optimistic but you never know.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Hd 24p cam
Jan Crittenden is the product line brand manager for the DVX in the USA, and Jarred and I have both talked with her at length. I also sent her a link to the DVX200 Wish List thread, and she's been keeping up on it.
Now, keep in mind that Panasonic is a bazillion-dollar company with HQ in Japan, so there's no guarantee that just because we want something that we'll get it... however the DVX100 was nearly IDEAL right out of the box, so I've got hopes that they're listening and will do what they can.
Jan Crittenden is the product line brand manager for the DVX in the USA, and Jarred and I have both talked with her at length. I also sent her a link to the DVX200 Wish List thread, and she's been keeping up on it.
Now, keep in mind that Panasonic is a bazillion-dollar company with HQ in Japan, so there's no guarantee that just because we want something that we'll get it... however the DVX100 was nearly IDEAL right out of the box, so I've got hopes that they're listening and will do what they can.
khill
Member
Re: Hd 24p cam
I'm hoping for the 24pHD-DVX version as well. I think some may be overlooking what may put Sony into play with it's FX1 - that would be it's companion VTR the HVR-M10U which I suspect will keep its current DSR11 customers happy while giving them the HDV/SD capabilities. I'm not interested in the camera per se, but I need a DSR-11 for a VTR in my setup and put a hold on purchasing it when I saw the SonyHDV deck. I can use my DVXa, plus have the abilitiy to use/rent/borrow a HDV camera if I need to.
I would rent the Varicam and utilize the DVCProHD codec from the camera into FCP HD via the firewire if I wanted to do true HD work.
What say you?
I'm hoping for the 24pHD-DVX version as well. I think some may be overlooking what may put Sony into play with it's FX1 - that would be it's companion VTR the HVR-M10U which I suspect will keep its current DSR11 customers happy while giving them the HDV/SD capabilities. I'm not interested in the camera per se, but I need a DSR-11 for a VTR in my setup and put a hold on purchasing it when I saw the SonyHDV deck. I can use my DVXa, plus have the abilitiy to use/rent/borrow a HDV camera if I need to.
I would rent the Varicam and utilize the DVCProHD codec from the camera into FCP HD via the firewire if I wanted to do true HD work.
What say you?
Motherboard
Well-known member
Re: Hd 24p cam
we all want HD and talk about HD
but will people really be able to tell the difference/appreciate it? on a standard TV set? what's the percentage of north american homes with HD sets, besides VOOM there are a few stations with HD shows, and is that really HD or just boosted/enhanced signals of regular NTSC video?
how many of us own an HDTV?
I wouldn't rush to buy an HD cam just yet
we all want HD and talk about HD
but will people really be able to tell the difference/appreciate it? on a standard TV set? what's the percentage of north american homes with HD sets, besides VOOM there are a few stations with HD shows, and is that really HD or just boosted/enhanced signals of regular NTSC video?
how many of us own an HDTV?
I wouldn't rush to buy an HD cam just yet
Woodson
Well-known member
Re: Hd 24p cam
[quote author=unix link=board=nws;num=1102204950;start=0#10 date=12/08/04 at 20:20:22]we all want HD and talk about HD
but will people really be able to tell the difference/appreciate it? on a standard TV set? what's the percentage of north american homes with HD sets, besides VOOM there are a few stations with HD shows, and is that really HD or just boosted/enhanced signals of regular NTSC video?
how many of us own an HDTV?
I wouldn't rush to buy an HD cam just yet
[/quote]
a very good point!
[quote author=unix link=board=nws;num=1102204950;start=0#10 date=12/08/04 at 20:20:22]we all want HD and talk about HD
but will people really be able to tell the difference/appreciate it? on a standard TV set? what's the percentage of north american homes with HD sets, besides VOOM there are a few stations with HD shows, and is that really HD or just boosted/enhanced signals of regular NTSC video?
how many of us own an HDTV?
I wouldn't rush to buy an HD cam just yet
[/quote]
a very good point!
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Hd 24p cam
[quote author=unix link=board=nws;num=1102204950;start=0#10 date=12/08/04 at 20:20:22]we all want HD and talk about HD
but will people really be able to tell the difference/appreciate it? on a standard TV set?[/quote]
No. I've been making DVD's of the DVX/XL2/FX1 footage, and the FX1 downrezzed DVD footage is easily the worst of the three -- it's the lowest-resolution and gets muddy. The DVX and XL2 footage looks better on a DVD.
[quote author=unix link=board=nws;num=1102204950;start=0#10 date=12/08/04 at 20:20:22]we all want HD and talk about HD
but will people really be able to tell the difference/appreciate it? on a standard TV set?[/quote]
No. I've been making DVD's of the DVX/XL2/FX1 footage, and the FX1 downrezzed DVD footage is easily the worst of the three -- it's the lowest-resolution and gets muddy. The DVX and XL2 footage looks better on a DVD.
This has been a very hard figure to pin down. People are really tight-lipped with statistics, but I assume it'll be easier to get the real info next month at CES. From what I can tell, HDTV's are in about 1.5 percent of US homes.
I certainly wouldn't rush to buy an HD cam that didn't do what I wanted, just because it was HD! Give me a DVCPRO-HD or HDCAM mini-cam that does 24P and variable frame rates, and I'll buy it today. But I don't want to spend a bunch of money I don't have on a camera that doesn't do what I want (24p/filmlike imagery/manual controls/professional audio) just to get a feature I don't need (HD resolution).
ChuckS
Veteran
Re: Hd 24p cam
How are the NLE’s working with HDV? Are they editing in MPEG2 or do they convert the HDV to frames and edit in normal DV?
The number of HD sets sold is a hard number to pin down, 20 million sets sold by the end of ‘04 is a consistent number. There has been a proliferation of HD channels and HD content for broadcast in recent years, add to that Sony’s purchase of MGM for $5+ billion and Disney’s support of (Sony backed) Blu-Ray – which now gives BluRay approximately 35% of Hollywood’s content, and the studios that support Toshiba’s competing HDDVD format owning approximately 40% content and you have the makings of a great HDDVD format war.
It appears that Sony is betting, and probably correctly, that HDDVD will launch HD into the mainstream. When you consider that DVD has a 40.6 percent annual growth rate compared to the 8.5 percent CAGR of the broadcast and television markets combined, and even if you reduce the number of projected sales of HD sets to half, HDDVD sales will probably eclipse standard def DVD sales in the first two years or about $26 billion.
Sony has positioned their HDV camera well for the early adopters to the HDDVD market, people who will want to create home HDDVD’s. If Panasonic could produce a price competitive camera that shot 720P instead of HDV it would eclipse the FX1’s market position. Even if there’s a format war it will be short lived and HD programming and sales will experience unprecedented growth.
That’s good for all of us…
How are the NLE’s working with HDV? Are they editing in MPEG2 or do they convert the HDV to frames and edit in normal DV?
The number of HD sets sold is a hard number to pin down, 20 million sets sold by the end of ‘04 is a consistent number. There has been a proliferation of HD channels and HD content for broadcast in recent years, add to that Sony’s purchase of MGM for $5+ billion and Disney’s support of (Sony backed) Blu-Ray – which now gives BluRay approximately 35% of Hollywood’s content, and the studios that support Toshiba’s competing HDDVD format owning approximately 40% content and you have the makings of a great HDDVD format war.
It appears that Sony is betting, and probably correctly, that HDDVD will launch HD into the mainstream. When you consider that DVD has a 40.6 percent annual growth rate compared to the 8.5 percent CAGR of the broadcast and television markets combined, and even if you reduce the number of projected sales of HD sets to half, HDDVD sales will probably eclipse standard def DVD sales in the first two years or about $26 billion.
Sony has positioned their HDV camera well for the early adopters to the HDDVD market, people who will want to create home HDDVD’s. If Panasonic could produce a price competitive camera that shot 720P instead of HDV it would eclipse the FX1’s market position. Even if there’s a format war it will be short lived and HD programming and sales will experience unprecedented growth.
That’s good for all of us…
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Hd 24p cam
Barry-
As I'm sure you know, the Sony hd consumer and industrial models are 1080i interlace chips and does not do real 24p or 30p. These cams are doing basically what you would do in post...De-interlacing in camera producing a faux 24 fps...or 30fps. In walking around dv expo yesterday, the people in the know or people who really asked Sony the direct question found this out. Others who didn't were saying it did 24p and I had to explain. Don't get me wrong, it's a great camera and Sony will sell a ton of them but for the cinematographers wanting the truest film look, this is not the camera(s). Of course, we will accessorize them here at B&S.
take care and Go DVX and XL2
Barry-
As I'm sure you know, the Sony hd consumer and industrial models are 1080i interlace chips and does not do real 24p or 30p. These cams are doing basically what you would do in post...De-interlacing in camera producing a faux 24 fps...or 30fps. In walking around dv expo yesterday, the people in the know or people who really asked Sony the direct question found this out. Others who didn't were saying it did 24p and I had to explain. Don't get me wrong, it's a great camera and Sony will sell a ton of them but for the cinematographers wanting the truest film look, this is not the camera(s). Of course, we will accessorize them here at B&S.
take care and Go DVX and XL2
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Hd 24p cam
[quote author=JIM MARTIN link=board=nws;num=1102204950;start=0#14 date=12/09/04 at 11:45:40]Don't get me wrong, it's a great camera and Sony will sell a ton of them but for the cinematographers wanting the truest film look, this is not the camera(s).[/quote]
That is exactly the conclusion I came to as well. For interlaced HD video, the FX1 can make a picture that delivers that startling "I'm looking through a window" feeling. But it's not filmlike in any way. There will be other cameras, hopefully in the near future, that will be better for the cinematographer wanting the film look. JVC's already announced plans to produce a 1080/24p camera, and Panasonic's teased us with a prosumer camera bearing the DVCPRO-HD logo. But for today, for today's needs, for producing DVD's, the DVX and XL2 do a superior job over the FX1.
[quote author=JIM MARTIN link=board=nws;num=1102204950;start=0#14 date=12/09/04 at 11:45:40]Don't get me wrong, it's a great camera and Sony will sell a ton of them but for the cinematographers wanting the truest film look, this is not the camera(s).[/quote]
That is exactly the conclusion I came to as well. For interlaced HD video, the FX1 can make a picture that delivers that startling "I'm looking through a window" feeling. But it's not filmlike in any way. There will be other cameras, hopefully in the near future, that will be better for the cinematographer wanting the film look. JVC's already announced plans to produce a 1080/24p camera, and Panasonic's teased us with a prosumer camera bearing the DVCPRO-HD logo. But for today, for today's needs, for producing DVD's, the DVX and XL2 do a superior job over the FX1.
XCheck
Veteran
Re: Hd 24p cam
There is a limited amount on information you canput on a miniDV tape. I would be weary of anyone putting HDV with 24P on a miniDV - if you want to keep spatial resolution of HD with temporal resolution of 60i (which even 24P gets converted to by pulldown), you have to lose the color space - something DVX users don't want, I am sure. And HDV is already compressed, so any way you cut it, it's a big compromise.
HD-anything on miniDV - keep on dreaming. I don't think it's going to happen. Maybe for consumer cameras, but not for film makers.
Unless, of course, they change the tape transport mechanism to make the 63minute tapes hold 15 minutes of content.
There is a limited amount on information you canput on a miniDV tape. I would be weary of anyone putting HDV with 24P on a miniDV - if you want to keep spatial resolution of HD with temporal resolution of 60i (which even 24P gets converted to by pulldown), you have to lose the color space - something DVX users don't want, I am sure. And HDV is already compressed, so any way you cut it, it's a big compromise.
HD-anything on miniDV - keep on dreaming. I don't think it's going to happen. Maybe for consumer cameras, but not for film makers.
Unless, of course, they change the tape transport mechanism to make the 63minute tapes hold 15 minutes of content.
Motherboard
Well-known member
Re: Hd 24p cam
I saw a guy buying an FX1 at the expo's sammys on Thursday
and he was later walking arround the complex and ranting about his new HD cam, something I would also do, it would only had to be a DVX and not anything from sony, anyway I guess I was just jellous, at the end of the night he was still outside of the LA convention center telling some dude "but it's HD baby, it's HD"
and I'm like yeah but it's no 24p
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
by the way I didn't even bother to stop at canon or sony's booths
also creative cow had a booth, hopefully next year DVXuser.com will have some workstations with like pcs and macs and DVXs hooked up to NLEs and create all kinds of stuff
hopefully also a DVXuser.com "film" showing at DV cafe.
cheers
I saw a guy buying an FX1 at the expo's sammys on Thursday
and he was later walking arround the complex and ranting about his new HD cam, something I would also do, it would only had to be a DVX and not anything from sony, anyway I guess I was just jellous, at the end of the night he was still outside of the LA convention center telling some dude "but it's HD baby, it's HD"
and I'm like yeah but it's no 24p
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
by the way I didn't even bother to stop at canon or sony's booths
also creative cow had a booth, hopefully next year DVXuser.com will have some workstations with like pcs and macs and DVXs hooked up to NLEs and create all kinds of stuff
hopefully also a DVXuser.com "film" showing at DV cafe.
cheers
