Having doubts with the FS700, can we be honest here?

Major props to Frank and his profiles as well.

I would also love to see Sony enable ISO/Gain to be activated on the wheel, to me the inability to scroll through them is the most annoying aspect of the FS.
 
jayrock said:
I have the FS700 on pre-order, but .... The image looks soft, lacks contrast, noisy even in daylight and .... ...I rather get more Zeiss ZF glass...
I could be wrong..
Click to expand...
Oh, YES ! You are wrong !! Even when you know about " the compression to Vimeo " ( and YouTube ) you still trying to judge on that instead to look to ORIGINALS !
You say: "image looks soft, lacks contrast" .. are you serious?

.. take a look to this MTS files:

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00000.MTS Don't you see how good it hold shadows in this contrast light ??

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00011.MTS see how good and natural color in it .. ? / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00020.MTS / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00021.MTS /

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00022.MTS / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00003.MTS / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00006.MTS Take a look - how many fine details in this shots ... even they are taken with Kit Lens

For my eyes FS-700 much better than FS-100 !!!... if you look to DETAILS.. not to sharpness , ...to really nice COLOR and Dynamic Range.. not to oversaturated "photo-samples" ...

and.. about the noise ... I'm not surprised that FS-700 have little bit more noise than FS-100.. more pixels and single pixel is smaller.. but there not so much differense as you think :) -
- if someone using CINE4 in low light, instead of CINE1 .. there will be too much noise ....so, better to learn how to use this wonderful camera first.. and then make your opinion based on real experience.. not on YouTube samples

I wonder how many people, who never use film cameras, talking about the "noise" and complain about "hard way to change ISO" in FS-100 and FS-700 .. :(
Sometimes I think they need to try to shoot with 400 or 800 ISO film with Old Film cameras ... Maybe after it they will stop to look to FS-700 camera as "night vision device" ...

Photography is "Drawing with LIGHT" .. not with darkness :))) So.. if I have to shoot and there not enough light - I need to get LED lights and properly use them .. NOT to push ISO up to 16000 !!!

----------------------
..and do you really believe that GH2 and "More Zeiss glass" make you Stanley Kubrick or Ingmar Bergman ?? :)
 
I would also love to see Sony enable ISO/Gain to be activated on the wheel said:
Sony had this request a year ago on the FS-100, they did nothing on the FS-700, so they are unlikely to make a firmware update.
Click to expand...
 
Im sure you could grade these shots to make more pleasant, and it's a great tool. By out of the box, i really don't like neither the output of the F700 and the ergonomic. I still put an option on changing my mind and buying one, but for now i will skip it, not exited by this camera.


__________________________________________________________
Vincent Thomas
Artist for Film / Photograph & Creative Director
http://fr.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas

SergeSmArt said:
Oh, YES ! You are wrong !! Even when you know about " the compression to Vimeo " ( and YouTube ) you still trying to judge on that instead to look to ORIGINALS !
You say: "image looks soft, lacks contrast" .. are you serious?

.. take a look to this MTS files:

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00000.MTS Don't you see how good it hold shadows in this contrast light ??

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00011.MTS see how good and natural color in it .. ? / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00020.MTS / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00021.MTS /

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00022.MTS / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00003.MTS / http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/00006.MTS Take a look - how many fine details in this shots ... even they are taken with Kit Lens

For my eyes FS-700 much better than FS-100 !!!... if you look to DETAILS.. not to sharpness , ...to really nice COLOR and Dynamic Range.. not to oversaturated "photo-samples" ...

and.. about the noise ... I'm not surprised that FS-700 have little bit more noise than FS-100.. more pixels and single pixel is smaller.. but there not so much differense as you think :) -
- if someone using CINE4 in low light, instead of CINE1 .. there will be too much noise ....so, better to learn how to use this wonderful camera first.. and then make your opinion based on real experience.. not on YouTube samples

I wonder how many people, who never use film cameras, talking about the "noise" and complain about "hard way to change ISO" in FS-100 and FS-700 .. :(
Sometimes I think they need to try to shoot with 400 or 800 ISO film with Old Film cameras ... Maybe after it they will stop to look to FS-700 camera as "night vision device" ...

Photography is "Drawing with LIGHT" .. not with darkness :))) So.. if I have to shoot and there not enough light - I need to get LED lights and properly use them .. NOT to push ISO up to 16000 !!!

----------------------
..and do you really believe that GH2 and "More Zeiss glass" make you Stanley Kubrick or Ingmar Bergman ?? :)
Click to expand...
 
Camera has barely left the distribution centers. Quick grabs, no real shoots. Wait til real shows come out. Or well lit music videos- they turn around in a couple of weeks. TV shows/features will take 6 months or longer-non disclosure agreements prevent postings online.

It's not the camera. It's the lighting. It's the actors. It's the locations/ set design. It's the shot design/ composition. It's the lenses. Then, maybe around here or lower, it's the camera. That's more or less how I rate the order of importance to creating a "cinematic" look.

It's also not 35mm. It's a different aesthetic, so I'd just leave it at that. HOWEVER, given the near grainless modern film stocks and DI process, poorly shot 35mm also looks kinda "video-ish" It's the lighting. There simply is no magic bullet, or piece of equipment that instantly gives a cinematic look.

What Sony has done is lower the price point to under $10K for a solid, usable, S35 size digital image acquisition- with 240 fps in 1080p. The image is better than any DSLR- except perhaps Canon's new 4K "cinema eos" DSLR.- which is a guess at this point. (I still own 2 hacked GH2's)- and yes, the Sony's have much lower bit rate but I think they look better all in all, unless you make a living shooting resolution test charts.

What is also significant about the FS700 is the HD-SDI BNC connector. HDMI connectors and cables are the bain on shoots. Format converter boxes should be a thing of the past now. Hinged HDMI connectors work much better than rigid connectors, but nothing like BNC fittings and cable.
 
Kraut69 said:
Sony had this request a year ago on the FS-100, they did nothing on the FS-700, so they are unlikely to make a firmware update.
Click to expand...

I know. But if there's another firmware update perhaps it will be added, I'm holding out hope. I didn't expect something like peaking to get added to my original Nex5, but Sony introduced it in the firmware that dropped just before the 5n was announced. So there's a chance...
 
I just got my FS700, yesterday. I've been shooting with the stock PP6 set to Cinegamma4. I must say the FS700 blows my old Fs100 away. I am loving this camera!:beer:
Here's yet another slow motion test, shot at 960fps and denoised with neatvideo. YouTube is responsible for darkening this file much more than my original.
http://youtu.be/ABFzZd1ePk4
 
Here's my idea of the "cinematic" look. I hate to open a can of worms by first showing some examples of the RED Scarlet, but it's important because this is a camera that is not too far off form the FS700 if you plan right.

So as far as the ultimate (in terms of reach/$$) examples of the cinematic look:
https://vimeo.com/32843511
https://vimeo.com/33595071
https://vimeo.com/35818492

Now as far as what the hacked GH2 (keep in mind this cost 10x less than the FS700), here are great examples:
https://vimeo.com/44580576
https://vimeo.com/45596420

I may be venting because of all the uninspiring test footage. I'm really surprised to see how easy it is for people to just drop $8,000 on a camera to do videos that could've easily been done on a dslr.
 
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GH2 and Hacked GH2 can create some amazing images and get over a lot of image issues other DSLR's introduced (aliasing, softness, monitoring options, minor gamma problems, clip length, etc). On the other hand it doesn't handle low light anywhere near as well as the FS100/FS700/C300, doesn't have quite the dynamic range or range of gamma adjustments, cannot adjust iso/wb while rolling, doesnt have built in ND, XLRs, SDI, peaking, any framerates over 720p60 or any intermediate framerates among other things. I assure you if I didn't feel I needed those features for my regular work, I would be shooting a lot more on my GH2. GH2 is a great no-excuses camera since it is so inexpensive and well featured compared to the more common 5D/7D/others, but its not the camera for every job. A lot of people treat DSLRs like they are the camera for every job, and they are good enough for a lot of things, but usually people who choose them nowadays just do not know what they are missing by not using some of the newer bigger cameras, and the same is true with the GH2.
 
At time of writing, it's a day to go before Part 2 of Zacuto's "Revenge of the Great Camera Shootout" is up, covering all this sort of stuff - GH2s and iPhones against Alexas and Canons.

http://www.zacuto.com/shootout-revenge-2012/revenge-the-great-camera-shootout-part-two

+1 on lighting playing a huge part, but if I may put my Editor hat on and dive in regardless?

To be honest, it's come to my attention recently that some people may still be experiencing problems with clipped highlights because of the way some NLEs handle 109 'superwhites'. Having only recently started a slow dawdle from FCPX to Premiere, where I've been using Proc Amp to lower 109s to 100, as if you start any other way, Premiere runs a chain saw along the 100% line and your highlights are gone. I've also been made aware that some AVCHD transcoding methods truncate at 100% white when converting to ProRes, which means your highlights are gone forever. IMNSHO, these are workflows that should be taken behind the barn and shot; and if I get some time, I'll build a little blacklist of the ones I find.

So, unless one loves waveform monitors and curve tweaking in post, maybe some people's experience of FS100/FS700 will be tarnished by a missing step in the workflow.

Hey, not wagging fingers, I'm guilty of this too - bashing my head on Magic Bullet Looks with its 100% bug (now fixed), the transition from FCP7 to FCPX (a process of unlearning, I had to break apart my workflow, test, test again). I'm still not there with nuances in gamma and I'm due for an upgrade in monitoring, but if you're using 109s, you are accepting the responsibility to actually normalise them at some point in your chain, and failure to do so will get you really bad highlights and/or crap in the image by pulling greys to white and greys to black. Sort of.... (drum-roll please) a 'Video' look.

(grins, ducks, runs)
 
Good point Matt.
I might add, that a lot of unhappy shooters - especially those who coming from DSLRs (no offense) - should take a step back and look at the basics of shooting film.
You will see, that most of the work is done IN FRONT of the camera. Look at Ansel Adams zone system and learn how to keep your exposure within a few stops, than do the rest in post (there is a tread around here somewhere that covers the basics).
You will be amazed what you can get out of the FS100/700 (actually any camera).

my ct2, Frank
 
Postmaster said:
Good point Matt.
I might add, that a lot of unhappy shooters - especially those who coming from DSLRs (no offense) - should take a step back and look at the basics of shooting film.
You will see, that most of the work is done IN FRONT of the camera. Look at Ansel Adams zone system and learn how to keep your exposure within a few stops, than do the rest in post (there is a tread around here somewhere that covers the basics).
You will be amazed what you can get out of the FS100/700 (actually any camera).

my ct2, Frank
Click to expand...

Hi, Frank ! That's what I'm trying to find out before shoot real film with my FS-700 !! ... I've got it at July 3rd. ... and still testing, shooting samples, experimenting in case to learn my new device as deep as possible! ...

Take a look to this 4 test-samples taken on different ISO:

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/a1_00104_iso2500.MTS

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/a2_00107_iso4000.MTS

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/a3_00108_10000.MTS

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/a4_00106_iso12800.MTS

I belive I did it right... with proper exposure .. but someone told me "it have to be taken in darkness" ... :)

What do you think??
 
Postmaster said:
Good point Matt.
I might add, that a lot of unhappy shooters - especially those who coming from DSLRs (no offense) - should take a step back and look at the basics of shooting film.
You will see, that most of the work is done IN FRONT of the camera. Look at Ansel Adams zone system and learn how to keep your exposure within a few stops, than do the rest in post (there is a tread around here somewhere that covers the basics).
You will be amazed what you can get out of the FS100/700 (actually any camera).

my ct2, Frank
Click to expand...

Great reply Frank. I love reading posts that are informative and make me do my research. Based on The Ansel Adams zone system, I found a writeup on kenrockwell. i'm not sure if this is all correct due to the fact its a largely based opinion site, I still found a ton of information that I will be able to use in the future.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/zone.htm
 
MattDavis said:
To be honest, it's come to my attention recently that some people may still be experiencing problems with clipped highlights because of the way some NLEs handle 109 'superwhites'. Having only recently started a slow dawdle from FCPX to Premiere, where I've been using Proc Amp to lower 109s to 100, as if you start any other way, Premiere runs a chain saw along the 100% line and your highlights are gone.
Click to expand...

My thoughts.... If you are shooting for broadcast like I do for 99% of my jobs, I try my best to watch my waveform when shooting and keep my whites confined to 100% or under.
 
OK, posts have been deleted, and you know who you are. More personal attacks will be met with stronger action. That is all.
 
Postmaster said:
Good point Matt.
I might add, that a lot of unhappy shooters - especially those who coming from DSLRs (no offense) - should take a step back and look at the basics of shooting film.
You will see, that most of the work is done IN FRONT of the camera. Look at Ansel Adams zone system and learn how to keep your exposure within a few stops, than do the rest in post (there is a tread around here somewhere that covers the basics).
You will be amazed what you can get out of the FS100/700 (actually any camera).

my ct2, Frank
Click to expand...

Frank, I have to say that is where your work in the PPs has really help me out. [For me, using the G-Log A PP (V2.0 so far), setting my zebras at 95% to (Try my best to) religiously avoid high light peaking at all cost, and judicious use of the black level adjustments to maintain the bottom end really helps.]

At this point, working with a FS-100, I am more frustrated with my limitations in lens choices, available lighting and lighting control resources and, I will admit, some limitations in my current skill set than I am with any inherent limitations in the camera. That is why I want to thank all of the skilled folks here at DVUSER who are really helping me improve that last part. I really can not believe that if I was fortunate enough to have access to an Alexa or F65, and still had to use my current available lenses, lighting and lighting control resources and, yeah, my current skill set that I could make images that are vastly superior to what I can with an FS-100, right now.

I remember a quote from one of the top dog cinematographers in the audience interview part of the first Zacuto shoot out video who said something along the lines of, "These cameras (The HD-DSLRs) are great for students... If you can't make great images with these cameras... You shouldn't be allowed to use the more expensive cameras...". (No offense intended).
 
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