Has your 'banding' vanished?

[PappasArts]

cineform should do that...which, i didn't encode to cineform on those grabs, that's straight from avchd.

Yes cineform will do a 444 10bit file,however you need to dither first; since the original master was encoded to an 8bit codec which resulted in banding now part of that camera original. You need to do a dither; then export that file to a 10bit codec of choice for a new master for post work and archival.


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

 

[Park Edwards]

On Car3o's grabs, which look very nice by the way, what helps is the 1.4 lens.

I find that even if you have plenty of light and a low ISO, if you close down the lens or have a slow lens to start with like the kit lens at F4, you start to get banding. This is because the amount of light entering the lens does not produce a strong enough signal on the sensor, so the false signal from fixed pattern banding becomes more apparent, and after all the fancy words are said and done - more visible.

Can you test this theory Car3o? Try shooting at F4 with a higher ISO, giving the same brightness as the shots above and see what ya get. Maybe use the kit lens?

thanks spike...most undoubtedly the 1.4 helps. and the banding seems to be an issue on areas of a neutral color. like for example white walls. pure blacks seem to hide any banding there may be, but you'll sometimes get macro blocking. but evenly exposed shots should eliminate any banding you might come across.

 

[Park Edwards]

Yes cineform will do a 444 10bit file,however you need to dither first; since the original master was encoded to an 8bit codec which resulted in banding now part of that camera original. You need to do a dither; then export that file to a 10bit codec of choice for a new master for post work and archival.


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

well i certainly do not know how to dither in premiere...but i don't ever plan on shooting how my grabs were in the first place. 40w bulbs?? nah.

 

[PappasArts]

On Car3o's grabs, which look very nice by the way, what helps is the 1.4 lens.

I find that even if you have plenty of light and a low ISO, if you close down the lens or have a slow lens to start with like the kit lens at F4, you start to get banding. This is because the amount of light entering the lens does not produce a strong enough signal on the sensor, so the false signal from fixed pattern banding becomes more apparent, and after all the fancy words are said and done - more visible.

Can you test this theory Car3o? Try shooting at F4 with a higher ISO, giving the same brightness as the shots above and see what ya get. Maybe use the kit lens?

Also you will see it if you underexpose a little, by putting the shutter speed higher. Unless you have a magic camera.

Banding has "ZERO" to do with the lens. Gradients etc result in "banding" which is a quantization issue that is due to the 8Bit codec. We got it with DVCPRO HD, HDCAM-f900 etc; it didn't matter what lens, it was the issue with 8Bit codecs. The problem with these DSLR's, is the noise floor is even cleaner then those cameras and that is not good for 8bit codecs.

.

 

[commanderspike]

Banding has "ZERO" to do with the lens. Gradients etc result in "banding" which is a quantization issue that is due to the 8Bit codec. We got it with DVCPRO HD, HDCAM-f900 etc; it didn't matter what lens, it was the issue with 8Bit codecs. The problem with these DSLR's, is the noise floor is even cleaner then those cameras and that is not good for 8bit codecs.

Banding is certainly not caused by the glass in the lens but let me make myself clearer - lens brightness has a huge affect on the sensor and codec, if you shoot with the aperture closed down or with a higher shutter speed, dim underexposed areas will have severe banding because you're choking the electronics of in the GH1 of a light signal.

 

[PappasArts]

well i certainly do not know how to dither in premiere...but i don't ever plan on shooting how my grabs were in the first place. 40w bulbs?? nah.

I like natural low key lighting done with practicals. Others I know, love bringing in the lights. Everyone paints with light differently, however a low key lighting approach contains more gradients do to its subtle nature; and in effect creates issues with 8bit codecs. The reason we see it less with Blueray etc films is the very advanced dither systems employed in the mastering process before creating 8Bit discs.

 

[Park Edwards]

oh definitely. globes always give a more organic feel when lighting. but, i was just illustrating that wasn't something "setup" and not controlled. otherwise, a nice natural bulb would always has a nice touch. but still it's 40watts. i'd probably have at least a 100watt bulb. in it's place.

 

[PappasArts]

Banding is certainly not caused by the glass in the lens but let me make myself clearer - lens brightness has a huge affect on the sensor and codec, if you shoot with the aperture closed down or with a higher shutter speed, dim underexposed areas will have severe banding because you're choking the electronics of in the GH1 of a light signal.

Yes, now you made yourself more clearer. Like I posted a second ago; what you running into is simply exacerbated gradients do to low levels. Still there, just not as visible or apparent.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

 

[commanderspike]

however a low key lighting approach contains more gradients do to its subtle nature; and in effect creates issues with 8bit codecs.

Just a thought....Isn't the typical GH1 banding we're talking about here nothing to do with 8bit codecs and more to do with the fixed pattern noise of CMOS?

Are we talking 2 different things here Pappas?

 

[PappasArts]

Just a thought....Isn't the typical GH1 banding we're talking about here nothing to do with 8bit codecs and more to do with the fixed pattern noise of CMOS?

Are we talking 2 different things here Pappas?

Fix Pattern is entirely different then 8bit quantization issues; the rounded out waves you see in some of those shots posted are 8Bit codec issues.

 

[Park Edwards]

and that's why i wanted to clarify peoples interpretation what of banding is. fixed pattern banding (vertical or horizontal lines) i haven't seen on any of the videos i've shot. banding from the 8bit (posterization macro blocking), yes, but only under horribly exposed shots on neutral colored areas. in either banding, i believe it's due to the majority of people who are using the kit lens stopped at f4, not enough light and high iso. basically pushing it's limits too far.

 

[Ben_B]

I've got a long take I did for a class with the GH1 that is complete crap that I will post soon...total low light, at a party...lots of black, lots of grainy blocky codecy garbage, every other frame is flash-banding damaged (when part of camera flash goes off for a shorter period of time than it takes the CMOS sensor to roll through and expose a single frame, resulting in piece of the frame being flashed while another isn't...looks pretty terrible) from a ****ing strobe light, every other second is out of focus cause I was using a fast lens in the dark open...and yeah there is some banding...but you know what? Not much. Most of it is hidden in totally underexposed areas and later when I move to brighter areas it doesn't have any (although it might I haven't looked at it too closely there.) Will post soon.

My point is that even in a long take, under insanely shitty situations, it's possible to avoid banding (fixed pattern noise)...even if your footage already looks like puke from the codec or flash banding (as I mentioned earlier, a different kind of banding.)

 

[commanderspike]

If you reach the limits of light availability and are desperate, maybe try putting it in 1/20 shutter in 720p mode. At least you'll capture something, although motion would be a bit juddery compared to 1/30 its not *that* bad.