Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

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Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Hi Barnes

You make some good points about filmmaking as a logical craft, in that storytelling must follow a certain logic. That I do agree with. I also agree that filmmaking is dependent on all the things such as leadership, delegation and teamwork. Yes. However, my preassumptions to my argument were on a director's previsualization abilities, and simply, just how good he is at telling a visual story. In other words, if a director was like God, and simply could make a movie simply by creating everything he needs by imagining it, how good could it be? Kind of like a single guy making a computer animtion.

Now obviously there are far more gifted people in directing than others and that is why some people's movies suck and some people's movies rock. (even if we make an assumption of standardization that both people had the same resources and time at their disposal) And that is why there live in film history great cinematic directors.

While they are well learned in cinematic skills, I don't believe that everyone was born with a clean slate and whoever worked harder or got lucky was the one who became a great director. They had to have innate talent that they carried through their lives.

Yes, we have to have logic in our storytelling, but isn't this just like how gifted computer programmers need to have creativity in their logic to make better programs?

Humans are rational and logical, but the ones who are more rational and more logical, tend to be better at that, and the ones who are more creative, and more dynamic, those are the ones who generally will make the better films.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

[quote author=Young-H._Lee link=board=Directing;num=1097461083;start=30#40 date=10/21/04 at 08:29:46]Humans are rational and logical, but the ones who are more rational and more logical, tend to be better at that, and the ones who are more creative, and more dynamic, those are the ones who generally will make the better films.  [/quote]

Yep.

And, as far as I'm concerned, I 'd rather watch a badly made film that has a heart and soul than a technical masterpiece that showed not a whit of creativity.

Dan
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Abel Ferrara, Steven Spielberg, John Waters, Terry Gilliam, Robert Altman, Sidney Lumet, Woody Allen, John Cassavetes, Alex Cox, Frances Ford Coppola, and John Frankenheimer.

That’s a group of directors that runs the rainbow between pragmatic logic and uncensored creativity. If you start to separate them into categories and look at their successes and productivity, you might find that sheer creativity does not always make the better body of work.

I’m just suggesting that creativity is in abundance, far more so then we appreciate. It’s the skillful application of creativity that is lacking in most every art, and I think that’s what separates the artists from the inspired.

Ideas are fun, but products sell. There’s something to be said for the fact that filmmakers like Alex Cox and Abel Ferrara, who drip creativity and inspiration, generally don’t build a significant audience…while pragmatic and reliable directors like Steven Spielberg, and Robert Altman thrive and trade upon loyal viewers.

The badly made films with heart and soul are great, everyone loves them…but perhaps there’s a reason why John Waters has the career he does and Steven Spielberg is where he is.

(again, not an argument for or against anything, just a thought I had)
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I think it's important to realize the role of sheer dedication and perseverance—in fact, being too stubborn to realize it's impossible to succeed in this business.

I think there are probably lots more people around than you would think who are capable of the skillful application of stunning creativity. But most of them burn out or get discouraged early or are unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to really pursue it to its limit.

That's one of my goals—to be too hard-headed to know I can't possibly succeed.

Ryan
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

My old guitar teacher is far and away the best musician I have ever met. I think he sells insurance or something now. Talent is important, but I'll take tenacity, thank you very much.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

taking this on from the view point of talent...and the computer programming major in college:

i am and have been an artist (pencil, pen ink, painting, now digital) my whole life. i majored in fine art, and then commercial art. but i am an extremely non 'artsy' person. i dont do the 'this piece represents my deepest inner thoughts on the nature of the universe through this little red spot over here" kind of crap.

and, i must say that through observation of the artistic community, (and those classmates whos parents and teachers were never honest about thier kids' lack of talent)there is one observable, provable fact: you have talent, or you do not. there is no in between state. some are better than others by virtue of how much time they have spent perfecting natural talent and fusing creativity with hard work and dedication and practical knowledge of the tools of one's chosen trade.

it is a natural born instinct. if you have it and choose to use it, then you can make your work/craft/etc better. you can improve over time. you can hone your skills into a finely tuned machine of creativity and hard work. but if you do not have it, no matter how much you work at it or practice or study, you will still fall far short of what the naturally talented can do with minimal training.

so the question becomes: do you have natural talents that imbue you with the ability to create films?

equipment, and even experience, and practice are virtually meaningless in the absence of talent. it will be more work than you can possibly imagine to create a first film...but with talent it will come naturally and will show through the end product however rudimentary.

your first film should answer the question.
if you find that talent is not forthcoming (it should be recognized by outsiders not associated with the film who view it) then the next hope is to surround yourself with people who do have natural talent.

joel schumacher said once in an interview that he thought filmmaking would come easy to him on his first film becuase he believed he was destined to be a director. he said it was a monumental disaster. in viewing his filmography, it is evident when he did find persons of talent to work with, and when he was allowed to do his own untalented thing (tigerland, vs batman and robin). you be the judge.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I don't know how many Joel Schumacher movies I've seen, but it's a little harsh to accuse the guy of having no talent just because one or more of his films have been cheesy or flopped. Maybe he's just bad at picking projects.

I agree, in a limited way, that you either have it or you don't. But some people clearly have it more than others.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Obviously the issue of "talent" is both debatable and difficult to quantify. Largely because few people on the outside see what goes into an individuals "talent". How many hours, how much work, how many mistakes are made. I think that singing is a good example to use because it requires nothing more to develop than the raw material you were born with. It does seem apparent that some people are blessed with better voices than others. Does that make them more talented? Or is is the talent in the possibly intuitive way they develop that voice? Certainly there are examples of people who were not born with a great voice, but have learned to master the craft of singing. Are they talented? Is their talent (if they are talented) in their ability to create something where they had little aptitude?

It's all too confusing to me, and I think that those who consider themselves not talented too often use the term "talent" to explain away what they have chosen not to do: work hard at a specific task for a long period of time. I'm not saying that there aren't people who have more natural ability than others. Someone with no "talent" for filmmaking (whatever that might be) can work very hard and not produce something as good as a more talented filmmaker. I just think that it matters less than we often think. Tenacity, humility, hard work, and a willingness to learn are all more important in the final picture (IMHO). If for no other reason than it puts our destiny back in our own hands. If it were only up to the gifts we were born with, we wouldn't get to choose what we want to do. I won't accept that.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

The hardest thing about making your first film is that you are not experienced in making feature films.

But it is like a first kiss, first relationship, first time seen country, first time tasted apple. It is like climbing the mountain for the first time. It is entering unknown.
It is like a death itself.
It is like a miracle of life.

When you are on the set of your fist feature, dont really know what will happen next.
So, it is like watching good movie. You want to know what will happen next. But you dont.

Lets make a movie!

voytek
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Voytek's posts are a lot of fun if you read them using J. Peterman's voice from seinfeld.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

heheheh. Yes, that does the trick for me. Perhaps you could insert a picture of a nice duster, or wrinkle free slacks next to the post.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

which one you are talking about?
this short fatso or this crazy one which opens the door like crazy .... ?
;D
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Neither. The one that owned the clothing catalog that Elane worked for. He was very worldly, very philisophical and very dramatic in his speech patterns.

Funny stuff.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Neither actually.  J Peterman was Elaine's boss for a while.  He ran a catalog clothing company called the Peterman catalog (Based on the real one)  Next to some of the pictures were dramatic anecdotes by Peterman.  He was played by the actor John O'Hurly, who has a very theatrical, somewhat bombastic delivery.  It was some of the best stuff on the show (IMHO)

EDIT: J_Barnes beat me to it.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I think the greatest talent a filmmaker can have is the determination and persistence to get past a couple of horrible films and all the criticisms and insults that come with them.

Even my mom told me to do something else after my first couple films. But I ignored her and everyone else.

However, I do believe there are tons of people out there making films whose real talents lay elsewhere. I think good filmmaking also takes some level of intelligence.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Talent? What's that?

1) You have to learn the film language
2) Next you have to learn how to talk using this language.
3) And in the end you have to have something to say.


Then, just do what you are doing all the time.
Talk.

PS Dont you think ?
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I think this thread has taken an interesting turn. However, after reading all the threads, while I've found some interesting and informative answers, I'm yet to find that great advice to my original question. That warning. "Make sure you do [this] over everything else." Maybe I'm being selfish. But I feel that answer is out there.

Let me give you an analogy. I've been a reader (for features) for a long time. Somebody asks me "what's the biggest mistake a first time screenwriter makes?" That's simple. They meander. They don't focus. Everything from the scenes to the subplots to the main plot go on and on without purpose. I guess that's the kind of answer I'm looking for here.

thanks again,
c.g.

p.s. this thread has been very enjoyable to read!
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I don't think there is any ONE thing, other than "make sure you have film (or tape)." A film is a HUGE undertaking and there are THOUSANDS of things.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

The J Petterman suggestion really works! (sorry Voytek)

In my Vast experience...

(shot my first short film a month ago)

It isn't IMPOSSIBLE to make a good first film however you will make mistakes and encounter obstacles

How you overcome these obstacles and stay on track is the secret

My advice for a first timer is practise shoots or allow for reshoots. Be true to your vision but know when to take other opinions on board

Finally, It doesn't matter how well you can tell a story ... if you haven't got a good story to tell
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Since you raised the question a second time, I'll do my best to answer it from my own personal perspective and opinion.

[quote author=c.g. eads link=board=Directing;num=1097461083;start=0#0 date=10/10/04 at 19:18:03]
My question is, why?  Can experienced filmmakers tell me what is it exactly that makes it so difficult to make a good first film.  Where does everybody mess up?  What is the HARDEST thing about making that first film? [/quote]

The problem is that I don’t believe there is any one specific point where every first-time filmmaker fails. I don’t think there is any one specific thing that trips up first time directors. I think there are certainly a few hazards that tend to be more common then others, but that doesn’t mean that avoiding them results in a successful picture.

Here’s a couple of assumptions that can be assumed to be general hazards for first time filmmakers. (Obviously, every first time filmmaker comes from a different set of experience, talent and luck, so nothing’s universally challenging).

1. Lack of experience. Reading all the books in the world will still prove you unprepared for certain situations and problems. Unfortunately, there are just some things that must be learned as they’re encountered, so no amount of study will lessen the hard knocks you’ve got to take. The reason why so many second films exceed the first efforts is because the director/filmmaker has practical experience in the application of his education.

In some sense, you’ve got to be shot at before you can learn to shoot back.

2. Overconfidence in the material. The truth is that everyone’s first film stinks, but at the time we think it’s the greatest story since the bible. We all think what we’ve written or developed is revolutionary, inspiring, landmark and compelling but it rarely proves to be anything other then a mediocre first film.

This overconfidence in the material causes us to generally reject constructive criticism, artistic suggestions and collaborative interpretations as we position ourselves as the great defenders of our perfect script. In protecting our idea, we usually hamper it’s development by rejecting ideas that might genuinely improve the work as a whole.

3. Unrealistic expectations. The movie in our head is not the one that ends up in the can. This leads to some serious depression in some cases as we try and reconcile our production with what we expected it to be. Coming into a project with very realistic expectations about the story, production, post and eventual public reception allows us a lot more freedom in the execution of that project, and greatly reduces the agony experienced when things aren’t going as well as you imagined them.

4. Bad budgeting/business. 99% of all first films are failed by their preproduction phase (that’s a guess, not a real stastic). In general first time filmmakers don’t afford their project the correct funding, time, equipment and personnel. Trimming the fat of a budget until it fits an unrealistic figure simply results in a production with no contingency. When something fails, as it always does, it becomes exponentially more difficult to make up your shortfalls in time and money.

5. Untested Professional relationships. In general, you’re working with people you’ve never worked on a production with before. Anyone who’s been on a long production of any kind knows that people’s personalities can change completely under extended duress, so the first time filmmaker is rarely prepared for the interpersonal conflicts and divergent personalities that can sink a production. People often lose friendships over difficult projects, and first time filmmakers tend to rely more on their friends for assistance then anyone else…leading to professional relationships that are often tainted by personal history. Its difficult to tell your best friend that he stinks as a camera operator and then expect him to still go to the pub with you.

On the opposite end, you also find yourself working with professionals that you have no personal relationship with, and you have to put faith in their professional abilities without a serious understanding of their abilities.

6. Lack of POST PRODUCTION experience. Editing a film makes you a better filmmaker. That’s just a fact. A person with a general lack of direct editing experience doesn’t have a practical understanding of location sound, continuity, shot flow, spatial relationships in the edit and pacing. Without significant editing experience, you invariably wind up over or undershooting your scenes, leaving you with either too few shots in the edit room…or an inflated budget due to your excessive coverage. Most films die in the edit room, not in the production stage, because it’s only in the edit that we finally see every little thing that we ruined or forgot in the process of shooting. It’s only in going through that agony a few times that we come to a strong understanding of what’s needed in production to ease your post work.

7. Lack of quality assistance. It’s hard to get good people to work for free. People that are good at what they do tend to get paid for it, even paid well in a lot of cases. If you don’t have the money to pay for a crew, you simply don’t have access to first tier production help. That will always reflect in your production efficiency and the final product.

8. Insistence on authorship. Now this is a tricky one, but it’s one that I firmly believe. The majority of first time filmmakers kill their film by consciously or subconsciously insisting on sole authorship of it’s creation. We get wrapped up in this idea of being the sole creative force on a film, so much so that we visualize the “A film by _______” credit appearing on a big screen at the premiere.

This insistence on sole authorship causes us to hamper our production by not considering creative input from others. Actor’s interpretations are rejected when not explicit in our script. A DP’s lighting and angle suggestions are not considered because they don’t match up with our mental storyboard and all helpful adjustments to our production are generally rejected so that they won’t taint our claim of ownership over its creation.

In summation: I think it’s mostly a lack of perspective that kills first productions. What it all boils down to is the fact that we dream up an idea of what the final product will look like and we typically don’t properly prepare or afford ourselves the resources to accomplish that final product. I think most first films stink because they have to…we learn more that way. It hashes out those that will persevere and those that will disappear.

The first film is really just the first step in our film education, so it will never meet with the expectations we apply to it.

(anyway, that's just my idea of why...)
 
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