Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

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Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Okay, I see your point there. I guess what I'm trying to say is that doing is the best way to learn, and don't let ignorance stop you from trying. The worst thing that can happen is that it sucks, and you learn from it. I don't mean that you shouldn't do your due diligence. I guess I come from a background of making lots of shorts for me to learn from. I started out on my home video camera with some friends and family acting. The results were predictably bad, but I learned things that I couldn't be taught. Each film was to me, like a semester of guerilla film school. My only investment was time and a few cases of beer.
But I agree wholeheartedly that lack of effort shows. Thanks for keeping me on track
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Jim,

I think we are on the same page.

People should definitely get out and film, that is the best way to learn. I always tell people my first short was my film school 101.

But at the same time, I spent 4 months doing preproduction on that film, working every week-end, so that when it came time to shoot it I was as ready as I could be.

Chris
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

not nearly as poignant as the rest of the thoughts but...

A huge reason first timers suck, myself included, is because Film is one of the very few art forms u cant just go do.

I play bass and drums, and i can plug in or pick up some sticks whenever i want, i could practice 10 hours a day until i was the best musician i knew.

I bought my self a dvx, and my first dvx project is next month... see how that works?

No one picks up a guitar for the first time and jams out some hendrix, but they can sit in their room and devote themselves until the do. Films take just as much time gathering equipment and convincing ppl to help than they do actually making them, probably more. And once everything is set up and ppl are waiting, looking at u to make magic, NOW is the first time u've had to practice, and in a week or two, u have to wait another few months before u can practice again.

So yeah, ur first project wil stink, mine did, as most likely the next few will too, that's why im saving my good ideas until i can see up on the screen that im ready.

Its all about practice
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Everything said here in these posts are so true. To get the best you can offer, a director must pay close attention to detail. It is of upmost importance when directing anything, whether it's a feature length film or a 30 sec spot. Also I think THinSpirit said best. Finding and surrounding youreself with a cast and crew that is as passionate about the project as you are is very tough to find. I have been in the pre-production stage of my first feature for 5 months now. Trying to get the best crew and cast that I can on the small budget that I have($26,000). Things were going well, headshots coming in, I had about half of the film cast, when all of the sudden a large conflict occured with myself and the DP. The problem was over the shooting schedule. The script is 94 pages, 8 characters (with any real dialogue) and 14 locations. No special effects, car crashes or gun fights. It's a comedy. So, I planned on trying to get as many days as I could out of the free (deferred pay) cast and crew and all agreed to 18 long days of shooting. And now the DP, feels that 18 days is not near enough time to get it done right. I wish we had more time, but getting a dozen people to work (for free) past 18 days is asking way too much. So the DP, said that if we didn't extend the shooting schedule to 32 days, that he would be wasting his time. So, the problems continue, but we will get through them.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I think your DP is being unreasonable. For that kind of budget, 18 days is pretty good in my book. Indies these days even do it in 12-14 days. I'm in preproduction myself. I've been honing the script for the past three years and originally, I intended to hire a director but I've decided to direct it myself. Preproduction is quite a task. I hope to start filming in February/March. I still have to decide whether I'm going to use multiple DVX cameras or just one. What do you guys think? I've also been hearing good things about this super 16 so I'm now confused whether to use DVX or super 16 but I'm still hoping DVX.

Since I'm just a novice too, I'm trying to do my best to avoid the mistakes that first timers make. I've two shorts that I hope to make before the end of the year just for experience's sake. I'm reading a lot of filmmaking books but theory alone does not cut it so I'm going to be out there experimenting. I'd also love to have a sit down with anyone of you guys in the LA area just to pick his/her brain over coffee/lunch/dinner (I'll pick up the tab).

vic
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Theres two ways to look at this:

1. Your DP is correct and you aren't allowing him enough time to shoot the film.

or

2. Your DP is correct and he doesn't have the time he needs to shoot the film.

What I mean is that his concerns probably come at a reason. Either you aren't affording enough time based on locations/actors/script/timeline, or your DP doesn't have the experience or abilities to acomplish everything he needs to acomplish under your alotted schedule.

Either way, he wasn't going to get the job done for you so it's best that you part ways. Shooting 94 pages in 18 days ammounts to about 6 pages a day over who knows how many setups. Once you consider those shooting requirements and add 14 company moves in 18 days, my suspicions tell me that your DP might have been right to jump ship.

That doesn't mean that it can't be done, but looking at it under those terms, I think I would have made exactly the same demand he did.

Also, I'd suggest that you get used to asking too much, it's often the only way things get done.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I have to agree about possibly parting ways. If a guy is telling you he can't do it in that time, it's not the same as saying it can't be done.

Did he give you specific reasons? Because on the one hand people are generally aware of their own limitations. On the other hand, part of being a director is to help people go beyond their perceved limitations.

Of course a lot of it depends on the script. 6 pages a day on one film is not the same as on another. I've shot as much as 16 pages in one day, but it was all very chatty stuff. A lot of over the shoulder and 2 shots.

If you have a lot of set-ups and locations for example, he may be right. If you haven't done so, I'd sit down and get details, maybe get together what you think your shooting schedule should look like. If he starts bringing up some valid and specific points about why it's not enough time, you might want to rethink your position, or find a way to shoot it more efficiently. That might mean a new DP.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Well the 14 locations is a bit misleading. All but 3 of them are located with in 4 miles of each other. I understand that lighting IS cinematography, and that he wanted to do the best possible job that he could. However, he was saying that he needed 2 hours to light each setup ( not each location, but each and every setup) etc. I wished he would have said something 3 months ago, so I could have been using that time with someone that is on the same page as I am.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

It's not unusual to have a DP walk on a project the day before and get something good out of the experience. In the end, having someone leave a project when they don't have full faith is the best thing that can happen to the project.

Also, 14 locations is 14 locations. It doesn't matter if they're 10 miles apart or 3 floors apart, it still involves a significant movement of resources that will sap energy and momentum from an overworked crew. A company move rarely goes as well as you think it can.

2 hours can be a lot of time to light a set up and it can be too little time...it depends on the location, equipment, crew and requirements of the camera. Just because he's saying he wants 2 hours, doesn't mean he's going to take it either...any good technician will pad their requirements a bit to afford them a little latitude where they need it.

How recently did your shooting schedule come up? Had you ever discussed it with him before? Had he ever voiced concerns about the timeline? How experienced is he?

If he's experienced and you're not, why aren't you worried yet?

There's a way to get a lot done in a short amount of time, but cinematography like acting, is an art you can expedite only at great expense.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

No, I'm not worried, just a bit bummed that it didn't work with the guy (DP)
How experienced am I? This is my first feature and my "directing" experience is in TV. Golf show, Crime TV show, commericals etc. And with my TV experience, I learned that your show or in this case movie is most often times as good as your budget. However, knowing this was gong to be a low budget film, I wrote the script to accomodate the money. 75% fo the story is daytime. So, we don't have a real budget to pay actors and crew, and especially not for 32 days. I am not trying to copy or emulate a Hollywood type of film, and in my opinon, if a low budget movie tries to copy the bigger budget hollywood style, they will fail. This also would have been the DP's first feature as well.

The shooting schedule has been known since our first meeting, so it was no surprise. I suspect that he feels a bit overwhelmed. As I do at times, but my vision keeps me focused. And I like the no "holding back punches" opinons on this forum to be very helpful.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I'd completely agree with you...it sounds like he's become overwhelmed, in which case he'd doom your project anyway, right?

COnsider it a blessing for you both, and if you still want to use him later, you can talk to him about your NEXT project.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Sometimes circumstance can be a *****, but it probably is for the best. And if he's known the schedule along and is only now raising objection, he might not have been the best person to work with regardless of how much time you had to shoot.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

No matter what else happens, you've got to replace that guy with someone who can do the job. There's been great advice on this thread, but it all comes down to: he's saying he can't do it. So if you try to do it, with him, you'll fail. Unquestionably.

You've got to immediately start casting around for DP's who are experienced with 18-day shoots, someone who knows how to work FAST. You've got to listen to your people, if they say they can't do it, what they mean is, they can't do it. Which means it won't get done. You've got to replace him with someone who can do it.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Your DP is telling you he either won't or can't work on your film. He's asking for you to cut him loose, but making it seem like it's your decision. Or he's got some serious cold feet. Occassionally, a 2 hour lighting setup is justified in a low-budget indie, but you need someone who can generally do it in 15-20 minutes. Some prima donna or inexperienced DP doing 2-hour lighting setups would last exactly one day on most indie productions. I agree with James, that it's a blessing to be able to replace him before the shooting starts. If he's playing games with you now, then it's only going to get worse under the pressure of the production. You'll know you're talking to a professional when they say that they'll work within your schedule or just flat out say no.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

I'm going to go a bit off tangent and add some of my thoughts on the original discussion on making your first film. Everything that has been said on this board has been valid and is justifiable.
However, my argument of a good filmmaker making a GOOD film is based on a person's gifted ability. Meaning, innate ability - or talent. If a person was not born an artist then as hard as he may try may never amount to a Da Vinci. It's an unfortunate reality and I know that much of the "self-empowerment" talk of our time focuses on beating the odds, but I think everyone has their lot in life and each lot has its limitations. This by no means - means that one cannot become successful and find happiness and satisfcation as a filmmaker or whatever they choose to pursue, but simply my point is if you were born left brained and are a purely analytic thinker with no artistic talent, then you can only develop your artistic skills to a point where there will be diminishing returns and you can never achieve the potential that a natural Da Vinci could in a lifetime.

I came to be convinced of this in my own life experience. Growing up in high school and graduating college, I was frequently pressured to be academically successful in math, science, computer programming...etc. And coming from an Asian family, the expectation on me from friends and family to excel was enormous. But as hard as I tried, I never did. I failed many classes in college as a computer science major - despite my efforts of trying hard. I could NEVER EVER grasp highly abstract concepts as fast as my classmates - concepts relating to data structures, data bases, computer vision, and furthermore apply those theories into writing computer programs. I got C's D's and F's all the time...its a miracle that I graduated. I had to get help from TA's, professors, pulled frequent all niters and drink lots of coffeee...omg I looked like hell through most of my college career. My point is, my brain is just not LEFT BRAINED gifted analyitical, logical...I know relaly smart people who could pick up these abstract comptuer concepts and math concepts in a snap. But I coudl never. Now granted if I kept trying and trying and trying, I could probably develop into a pretty successful comptuer scientist...but only to a degree. I would never in my life become half of John Carmack (lead programmer of ID's DOOM game).

So I think in the same way, a good filmmaker is already born a good filmmaker. A good filmmaker has strong visualization skills, can see shots in his head and even edit those shots together and just has an innate sense of what works best in film. It takes practice to learn, but the one with the true gift is the one who will excel even in their first film. While some of us might not be the best filmmakers and aren't innately gifted to be so, I think we can still be very successful, it willl just take a little longer with a little more practive to get to Spielberg level

So, to all of you filmmakers, keep aspiring, keep learning and more power to you ;)

Btw, I have YET to make a DVX film and show you guys...so I'm not trying to be condescending or anything!!
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Just to offer a dissenting opinion about your assessment of your own abilities:

I don't see how a GOOD film is predicated solely on one person's innate ability. As film is so collaborative and communal, a good film is never founded solely on one person’s efforts. Furthermore, the process of collaboration is built not on creativity but on logic, reasoning, strategy and analysis…all function traditionally assumed to be part of the left brain.

Even complex orchestrated music at its most creative and inspired moments can be broken down into mathematics and logic.

Humans develop to a state where testing shows them to be “highly creative” right before we begin school. Because of the emphasis on logic and reasoning, by the time we enter adulthood only 2 percent of us maintain the innate creativity we were born with.

I cannot see how anyone is born to be a filmmaker, we may be born to be creative, but we must learn to be filmmakers. Filmmakers are born of years spent in front of television sets. It’s not a gift, it’s a skill based on a heavily organized and regimented presentation of storytelling. Filmmaking, whether or not we admit it, is based on an intricate web of rules and logic. The process of filmmaking is one of collaboration, delegation, negotiation, diplomacy, leadership, decisiveness and perseverance.

We talk about our storyline in terms of logic. We compose and edit our shots according to a spatial visual logic. We apply formulas to our writing process. We apply reasoning when collaborating with our actors and creative craftsmen.

I don’t disagree with the spirit of what you’re saying, but instead I suggest that filmmakers are far more logical in their approach to their “art” then most other artists are. Because that logic doesn’t manifest in numbers, equations and chemical compositions, people tend to think that it’s purely a creative endeavor. I’m simply suggesting that filmmaking is a HIGHLY logical process, with logic and reasoning dominating creativity in nearly all phases of the creation of a film. I’d suspect that many of us performed under par in school, but that doesn’t translate to a propensity towards creativity and a lack of reasoning.

I don’t think there’s such a thing as a born filmmaker. I think we’re a bunch of creative logical people who’ve learned to think about story in visual terms.

We’re evolved couch potatoes.

Also, for those interested in further reading…here’s two articles about why the left/right brain theory might be total bunk:

http://williamcalvin.com/bk2/bk2ch10.htm

http://www.rense.com/general2/rb.htm
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Good/evil
yin/yang
male/female
logic/emotion
whisky/beer

Balance: without it we'd all fall over.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

What was so facinating about reading about left brain/right brain theory is the idea that all the scientists totally missed be boat about how the brains actually interact to acomplish tasks. Instead of focusing on the back and forth between the "logic" side and the "creative" side, the focused on the individual aspects of function that seemed to be dominated by one or the other.

It seems more likely to me that the logical portions of our brain govern and regulate the creative process and that the creative process has some governing and regulating power over the logical process.

For me, I see logic and creativity as being symbiotic in all endeavors, and the creative artists I've come to respect most have been some of the most logically ordered thinkers.

Andy Warhol, Frank Zappa, Chuck Palahniuk, Wes Anderson, Woody Allen, Willem de Kooning, etc. All inspired and occasionally manipulative artists trapped within highly reasoned, logical and calculating brains.

When you have creativity with no logic, you tend to have artists that are highly inconsistent or just plain crazy...like Thelnoious Monk.
 
Re: Hardest Thing About Making Your First Film?

Kidster,

Your shooting this in STL right?

If your DP bailed on you I have a recommendation for a STL DP who is quite good with the DVX, he shot a spot in my spec reel and did a nice job. (its on my web site, its the Bud Light spot) Skill wise he very good, personality wise he is the best DP I have ever worked with.

He might be willing to look at and consider your project. Shoot me an email if you would like to talk with him.
 
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