H4n noise preamp
- Thread starter swaneon
- Start date
Steve House
Veteran
Preamp or no, your signal is still going to go through the noisy Zoom preamps. The Juiced and the Riggy send mic level so that's no help. A preamp that sends line level might give a slight improvement but I would be surprised if it would be significant since AIR when presented with a line level input it just pads it down to mic level and sends it through the same preamps anyway.. The real solution is to buy a better recorder - not all digital products are created equal. By the time you added the cost of outboard devices to the base cost of the Zoom you will have spent enough to have bought higher quality to begin with anyway. In terms of total cash outlay it's always cheaper to get the right stuff right from the git-go.
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swaneon
Well-known member
im thinking about getting the tascam dr100 for $250
would that along with a simple preamp work fairly well in your opinion?
The Zoom H4n is not a bad recorder if you can feed it a good MIC level signal. ( or padded down LINE level signal )
ZOOM H4n : RMS MIC NOISE FLOOR
MIC LEVEL 10 : -78 dB
MIC LEVEL 20 : -78 dB
MIC LEVEL 30 : -78 dB
MIC LEVEL 40 : -76 dB
MIC LEVEL 50 : -76 dB
MIC LEVEL 60 : -73 dB
MIC LEVEL 70 : -68 dB
MIC LEVEL 80 : -64 dB
MIC LEVEL 90 : -63 dB
MIC LEVEL 100 : -60 dB
...So if you can keep the amount of gain at level 60 or lower, the noise-floor is better than -73 dB, which can produce great results.
ZOOM H4n : RMS MIC NOISE FLOOR
MIC LEVEL 10 : -78 dB
MIC LEVEL 20 : -78 dB
MIC LEVEL 30 : -78 dB
MIC LEVEL 40 : -76 dB
MIC LEVEL 50 : -76 dB
MIC LEVEL 60 : -73 dB
MIC LEVEL 70 : -68 dB
MIC LEVEL 80 : -64 dB
MIC LEVEL 90 : -63 dB
MIC LEVEL 100 : -60 dB
...So if you can keep the amount of gain at level 60 or lower, the noise-floor is better than -73 dB, which can produce great results.
swaneon
Well-known member
would you recommend getting something like the ntg2 and keep the h4n, and mic at 70 then using a preamp or buying a tascam?
There's a Marantz PMD661 in the sale forum for relatively cheap. Not to be confused with the older and far noiser 660 which is also for sale in the forum. Pretty decent and standard in public radio circles. The Oade Brothers modded 661 is even better if you can afford it. I use a Roland R-26 and think it probably has the best pre's for the price. It's far better than the Tascam and any Zoom.
The Tascam buys you another 6-10 dB ( with a lower noise-floor ) depending on the setting, but it also falls apart when pushed to it's HIGH mic gain setting.
- What are you trying to record sound for?
- Indoors or outdoors?
- If indoors, what sort of space are you shooting in?
- How reflective are the floors and walls?
- How many people are your recording?
- Will you have a boom-operator?
Shotguns ( like the Rode NTG-2 ) are great mics outdoors, but don't work so well indoors.
swaneon
Well-known member
ill take a look
if its not too much i can swing it
a bit of both
i am focused on weddings currently
this is the sound that we received from the zoom h4n but im not liking how theirs noise in the background
i don't i could have someone be a boom operator but I'd rather they work as an extra hand as needed
https://vimeo.com/49491980
usually there is an interview of sorts --which then would classify it as an indoor environment like this?
https://vimeo.com/37482766
in the future I'd like to do narrative filming but fairly focused on weddings/events right now
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Yes, the audio you are recording could be improved a fair bit.
Have you considered using small lav mics on both the bride and groom, and have them recording "wild" sound into a tiny recorder (like the Olympus LS-7 ) that the bride and groom would have tucked away inside their outfits ?
Countryman EMW Lav Mic (White)
Micro-Cat Lav Windscreen (White)
Countryman EMW Lav Mic (Black)
Micro-Cat Lav Windscreen (Black)
Olympus LS-7 Recorder
...The Olympus recorder weighs 3 ounces and runs for 30 hours on 2 AAA batteries. With a good lav mic it sounds quite good. ( I have used this when shooting interviews outdoors with a micro-cat to stop wind-noise )
I'm not a wedding shooter, so I can't tell you what the best lav mics are for weddings, but I have had good results with the Countryman EMW. ( my go to lav mic is the TRAM 50, which costs more )
...For narrative work, I would normally shoot with lav mics, and also have a boom-op running a shotgun outside / hyper-cardioid inside. Lav mics are great, but you have to practice to get to know how to place them properly.
swaneon
Well-known member
i might take that suggestion
I have routine access to these
Sony UWP-V1
but i do preferred wired
would you suggest using a lav and the zoom?
for $520 the marantaz 601 seems like a good choice it seems
For something like a wedding where you really can't fix a problem during the ceremony, I would also go with wired mics. This is why I like using wired lav mics into small digital recorders. Synch is easy to fix in post if you know what you are doing. ( I can synch hours of video and audio in a couple of minutes using a $20 Windows audio tool )
It would sound good, but where the heck are you going to stick a big clunky zoom H4n recorder.
The Zoom H1 recorder doesn't have a limiter circuit, isn't as well made as the Olympus LS-7, and has pretty poor interface controls. I bought a H1 for testing, but I've rarely used it.
I honestly don't think a better recorder is going to help you here.
I really think your problem is how you are micing things. Well placed lav mics are pretty much invisible and record great sound if set-up properly.
The other advantage to lav mics, is that you can have several going at the same time, so if something screws up with one lav, you will usually have other lavs to rely on.
swaneon
Well-known member
what software are you using? Singulars doesn't always work well with my recordings
I'll use the the combo a try then, thank you
I normally edit audio with Sony's pro editor Sound Forge, but their time-adjustment function is very inaccurate, so I went on a quest to find an audio editor that had an accurate time-adjustment feature, which after trying 7 or 8 different apps, led me to the el-cheapo GoldWave audio editor. ( $19 US with one year of support at [url]www.GoldWave.com[/URL] )
Now GoldWave has a very good function called TimeWarp that allows you to adjust the length of an audio file down to 0.0001 seconds. So if you know the exact amount of time the audio should be to match your video, you simply use TimeWarp to adjust it and then save the file. The newly adjusted audio file is now a perfect match to your video.
So for long event shooting, I simply start my camera and digital recorders running, and keep them running until the event is finished. You will now have one big video file and one big audio. ( or several if you have multiple recorders running )
To synch the audio with the video, I load up the video file into my editor ( Sony Vegas Pro ) and I load up the external audio into the same editor on a different track, then I adjust the external audio track to match the start of the video track. ( visually using the two audio waveforms, which I will zoom in on to get it as accurate a possible ) I confirm that the start of the video and the external audio match by playing them both and alternating between the two audio tracks to make sure they match. Once I know they match, I cut the external audio track so the start of the external audio track matches with the start of the video track. ( I alway start audio before the camera rolls, but you could still do the synching if the camera rolled first )
Next, I go to the end of both the video and external audio tracks, and do the same matching game, where I end up with the end of the external audio matching the end of the video, and again I cut the end of the external audio track to match the end of the video track.
With the two tracks ( video and external audio ) matching at the end, I jump back to the beginning of the two tracks to see how many frames different the external audio track is. For example the external audio track might be 17.5 frames too long compared to the video track. Now if I shot my video at 29.970 fps, that means the audio track is...
17.5 / 29.970 seconds too long = 0.5839 seconds too long
So to correct the external audio to match the video, I need to make the external audio run 0.5839 seconds faster.
So I export my CUT external audio from my video editor, then load up the exported audio track into GoldWave and use the TimeWarp function to subtract 0.5839 seconds from the external audio track. Then save the adjusted file, and bring the newly adjusted audio back into the video editor. If I did everything correctly the new adjusted audio will now match the video at BOTH the start and end of the video.
...I know this sounds somewhat complicated, but once you've done it a few times you can correct 3 hours of video/audio in a couple of minutes.
This is also a great way to add professional sound to cheap cameras that have no external mic inputs. ( you just use a good external audio recorder, then match up the timing in your video editor afterwards )
Back to your audio problem...
Since you are already having the wedding couple hold a Sure SM58 mic during the ceremony, one other solution that might work for you is to use a Sennheiser UHF wireless hand-held microphone and feed the audio into your camera or into your Zoom H4n recorder.
Sennheiser EW135-p G3 SKM100 G3 Handheld Microphone
This is an absolutely great sounding handheld wireless mic, that has built-in internal suspension so there is virtually no handling noise at all from holding the mic, and the electronics have been tuned to bring out the best sound quality from the Sennheiser mic capsules. ( you can swap mic capsules that have different mic sensitivity patterns )
Here's a video I shot way back in January, that uses this mic, and is recorded directly into my Panasonic GH2 camera. ( no external recorder was used )
PositiveLite.Com interviews Ronnie Burkett
Since you are already having the wedding couple hold a Sure SM58 mic during the ceremony, one other solution that might work for you is to use a Sennheiser UHF wireless hand-held microphone and feed the audio into your camera or into your Zoom H4n recorder.
Sennheiser EW135-p G3 SKM100 G3 Handheld Microphone
This is an absolutely great sounding handheld wireless mic, that has built-in internal suspension so there is virtually no handling noise at all from holding the mic, and the electronics have been tuned to bring out the best sound quality from the Sennheiser mic capsules. ( you can swap mic capsules that have different mic sensitivity patterns )
Here's a video I shot way back in January, that uses this mic, and is recorded directly into my Panasonic GH2 camera. ( no external recorder was used )
PositiveLite.Com interviews Ronnie Burkett
Rick R
Veteran
Sound Forge Pro 10 has the élastique Pro timestretch which seems to work OK though I have not tried it in this context. Otherwise it can be done easily right in Vegas. "Ctrl key> click and drag the end of the audio event"
An omni or wide cardioid head (MD-42 or 46) would be a better choice for a H/H IMO, though a little more expensive than the 835.
An omni or wide cardioid head (MD-42 or 46) would be a better choice for a H/H IMO, though a little more expensive than the 835.
swaneon
Well-known member
thank you for those suggestions
i found i can rent these for free
sony uwp-v1
i'll try that out and see about getting the
recorder
one more thing would you recommend the ls 7 over the h2n if i could get them at the same price?
I'm thinking of using
the ls-7 or h2n + wireless lav
h4n for ambient sound
or marantz pmd 661 + wireless lav
h4n for ambient sound
love the sound on that footage btw
i'll look into both the techniques and post up new samples after the next wedding, thank you!
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Then you should test them and see how good the sound is. It should be good if the lav mic is placed properly.
These are quite different recorders.
The H2n recorder is great for ambient sound recording, as you can set it to record audio in a full 360 degrees spread. I use these when ever I have to shoot people around a boardroom table.
What I like about the Olympus LS-7 is mainly it's size, it's price ( $127 at B&H Photo ), and that it runs for 30 hours on one set of batteries.
The LS-7 is a very small recorder. You could fit four LS-7 recorders in the space of one Zoom H2n recorder. So being so small it's very easy to hide in a person's pocket, or clip it to their belt, or hide it in a woman's dress.
All of these combos would work well. My preference is for the LS-7 because it's low cost and it's very small ( so it's easy to hide ), and 30 hours on one set of batteries is amazing.
Also, Rick's suggestion of using a Sennheiser MD-42 or MD-46 mic is another route to consider. ( it's a better choice than the Sure SM58 mic you were using in the video you posted ) I like the EW135-p G3 SKM100 G3 Handheld Mic I used in the video because there is no mic cable with a wire-less mic, the electronics are tuned for the mic capsule, and the mic is self powered.
swaneon
Well-known member
i think ill get the ls 7 considering it's $90 and the size is a great benefit
and i'll look into the EW135-p G3 SKM100 G3
for the next wedding i think i'll be bringing the
h4n + ls 7
and use 3x the sony mics
thanks!
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