H4n for feature film

I

Indyreel

Well-known member
I am interested in using the H4n for my feature film, but am not sure if the built-in mics will deliver a truly professional soundtrack. I will be booming to the talent and neeeeed this to deliver professional audio for the film.

Will the H4n deliver, or am I expecting too much?
 
Yes, you are expecting too much.

For starters, dialog for film/TV is never recorded in stereo. Add to that the fact that your usable working distance for mounting the H4N on a boom will be too close for most practical narrative work.

Now, if you get a couple of really good mics for your boom (Rode NTG-3 for exteriors, AKG CK-93 or Audio Technica 4053b for interiors), and get a decent field mixer (Sound Devices MixPre or 302), and feed the H4N with the mixer, you'll get good results.
 
I had that same question when it first came out, but it still has the XLR-1/4" combo connections and word from Samson is that it does accept 1/4" TS line like it's little brother.
 
I've always wondered how good my own set up is. I've got horrible CAD high top mics, so I've never known for sure how good the audio should (actually) sound. I'm renting some nice lav mics for my next shoot this halloween, though, so that should finally allow me to hear how good the audio is.

I use a broken broadcast camera (DSR) to record all of my audio to full size DV tapes. Then it's just a matter of putting the footage in the editing software and deleting its video track.

In the end my set up only cost like 100 bucks total. You just need to find someone selling a really good professional camera that has a broken viewfinder or lens, etc. but that can still record. A lot of people won't want to replace something that's so far gone, especially if it's a few years old. You can then run your XLRs into it or go via a mixer depending on if you need phantom.

SERIOUS no budget filmmaking! ;)
 
I just finished shooting a feature documentary using the H4n as the main recorder and a marantz as a backup recorder. I was feeding it line level through xlr's from my sound devices 302, (the output must be lowered to feed the -10 level of the zoom) using a variety of mics, boom and lav's.

The H4 uses AA's but I would stay away from them at all cost if you use it all day. It EATs batteries like crazy. Best to power it with a larger battery through the plug. The boot-up time is rather slow so it's a pain to power down when you're on the go and need to be ready quickly.

I really liked the 4ch recording feature. I had to record several musical performances and used the built-in stereo mics plus two spot-mics through the mixer. The built-in mics sound surprisingly good when you're relatively close to the source. I would never use them for dialog recording though.

The backup recorder was essential for my situation because we only did one take per shot, and the zoom has much room for error if you're not paying close attention- batteries dying, accidentally switching to built-in mics, not rolling when you think you are.. etc.

There's no great solution for mounting it for run and gun and shooting. If you have a sound cart and someone sitting at it, fine, but to have one person record and boom, you need to mount it where it's visible and where the buttons won't get pressed accidentally (easier than you think). I used the 1/4 20 screw on the bottom to hold it on my mixer bag, pointing up where it's visible. It worked OK. Not ideal, especially since you need to access all sides.

Did I like the zoom as a sound recorder for feature work?
The sound- yes, it's great when you know how to use it and feed it from a good mixer. The built-in mics have limited uses, but sound good.
The ergonomics- NO, it's quirky and easy to mess up if you're a one-man band.
The battery life- definitely NOT.
For 'pro' applications, I think a backup recorder is a must.

Hope this helps.
 
Tim... I can work around the weirdness of it. The basic question is this, the sound devices mixpre and a high end boom sound fantastic... when feeding that into the zoom, does it capture that sound right or do the mis matching levels screw it up? I have to decide whether to get a stand alone Fostex fr2le, Tascam HD-p2, or a sound devices mix pre with the zoom.

I have used the Fostex fr2le.. it sounds ok. Thats about it. Same with the Tascam. The on board pres are not great. The sound devices mixpre with my sanken cs3e sounds godly... but how to record that godliness on the cheap? Will the h4n do it?
 
Blackout said:
Tim... I can work around the weirdness of it. The basic question is this, the sound devices mixpre and a high end boom sound fantastic... when feeding that into the zoom, does it capture that sound right or do the mis matching levels screw it up? I have to decide whether to get a stand alone Fostex fr2le, Tascam HD-p2, or a sound devices mix pre with the zoom.

I have used the Fostex fr2le.. it sounds ok. Thats about it. Same with the Tascam. The on board pres are not great. The sound devices mixpre with my sanken cs3e sounds godly... but how to record that godliness on the cheap? Will the h4n do it?
Click to expand...

Is the Fostex fr2le considered a pro standalone unit that does not need a preamp to feed it?
 
Yes, it is the cheapest stand alone pro box but it has it's own issues. The pre amps are decent... but the headphone jack is terrible, low, and hissy.
 
I just called Coffee sound and the sales rep tested the Zoom h4n while i was on hold and confirmed that it does take line level but only via the 1/4 jack, and that the no padding was needed. Just mentioned this to reconfirm what has already been stated. Kind of worries me though that we are getting so mixed responses. It would be cool if someone that actually owns this unite could try this and end the debate once and for all.
 
Blackout said:
Tim... I can work around the weirdness of it. The basic question is this, the sound devices mixpre and a high end boom sound fantastic... when feeding that into the zoom, does it capture that sound right or do the mis matching levels screw it up? I have to decide whether to get a stand alone Fostex fr2le, Tascam HD-p2, or a sound devices mix pre with the zoom.

I have used the Fostex fr2le.. it sounds ok. Thats about it. Same with the Tascam. The on board pres are not great. The sound devices mixpre with my sanken cs3e sounds godly... but how to record that godliness on the cheap? Will the h4n do it?
Click to expand...


OK. I just tested the 1/4" inputs from the xlr out of my 302. AHHH what a dummy I feel like now. :) Yes, the 1/4" inputs are line level, (or at least substantially lower than the xlr's) I plugged one in the xlr and one in the 1/4" and ran tone through it, and the 1/4" was a big leap lower.

One note- Switching back to the UN-attenuated output of the 302 (full +4 line level out) I still had to lower the input of the H4n (now plugged in the 1/4") to level 1 the lowest it goes, and even then, the 0 db tone coming from the 302 was at -6 on the H4n. Not enough headroom for me, so I would still need to attenuate the output of the 302 to get proper headroom. I like the recorder to be at -12 when running tone.

I tried a balanced XLR to TRS and an unbalenced XLR to TS and it made no difference. Seems like the h4n's 1/4" inputs are not balanced, which could potentially make long cable runs noisy or problematic.

I feel like an idiot for not trying this before, and I had half a mind to do it, but after a quick test, I really don't hear that much of a difference and the stuff I recorded last week all sounds great and is very clean. Definitely using the 1/4" inputs from the mixer will be better.

Another interesting thing I noticed- When feeding a dual mono signal into the h4n and recording or in record ready, it sounds like there's some 'stereoizing' effect or that the channels are out of phase. Switching the monitoring from the mixer to the h4, there's a huge difference, BUT when you play it back it sounds correct. Weird.

My conclusion now- If the mixPre or any other similar mixer has the ability to attenuate the outputs, then this recorder will work just fine and sound great, if not, then it could be distortion-land when the levels get hot (If it's a +4 line level mixer). I have my limiters kick in at +6 db so it just squeaks in there, but in the future, I'll attenuate the 302 outputs by 6 db.
 
Hey Tim,

Thanks allot for testing this really nice of you!!! When you say long cable runs, what are you talking 50 feet?
 
I posted this question to you in another thread

You mentioned the batteries running out, i have the mixpre and that also runs on 2 AA's and has to be changed out at least once a day, how many sets of batteries did you burn through in one day with the zoom? Can you not use rechargeable AA's? Does it have a accurate battery meter that lets you know in time that the battery needs changing before it starts to affect audio quality?

In the light of the new discovery would you consider the zoom h4n the best option in the sup 300$ category?
 
TNC said:
Hey Tim,

Thanks allot for testing this really nice of you!!! When you say long cable runs, what are you talking 50 feet?
Click to expand...

No problem. I was really testing it for myself though, and thought I'd share so others don't make the same mistakes. :happy:

Yeah, 50' or longer, or just crappy cable. There's really no reason to have the mixer miles from the recorder anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

I answered your other questions in the other thread.
 
I don't remember if the mixpre can attenuate the output. It doesn't have 1/4 outs so I assume you would go xlr out to a xlr to 1/4 adapter into the zoom. I hope this will work as this is my current plan when I go to B & H to buy this stuff, and if it doesn't work it's all going back. This brings you in at about $950 to have the sound of the mixpre's pres on a high end shotgun boom.

If it works I imagine it will be a lot better than going directly into a tascam hd-p2 or fostex fr2le, although prob not as good as going direct into a 702... but that's another $1000 I don't want to spend right now.

Thanks for testing!

TNC let me know how it goes if you run the mixpre into the h4n. I imagine it will be nearly the same.
 
Blackout said:
I don't remember if the mixpre can attenuate the output. It doesn't have 1/4 outs so I assume you would go xlr out to a xlr to 1/4 adapter into the zoom. I hope this will work as this is my current plan when I go to B & H to buy this stuff, and if it doesn't work it's all going back. This brings you in at about $950 to have the sound of the mixpre's pres on a high end shotgun boom.

If it works I imagine it will be a lot better than going directly into a tascam hd-p2 or fostex fr2le, although prob not as good as going direct into a 702... but that's another $1000 I don't want to spend right now.

Thanks for testing!

TNC let me know how it goes if you run the mixpre into the h4n. I imagine it will be nearly the same.
Click to expand...

The MixPre is output is fixed at line level but the 302's output is variable. For the 302, ouput attenuation below line level is the very first item in the setup menu.

No adapters needed. Just day before yesterday I had need to go from a SD442 XLR output to a 1/4" TRS input. Dropped in at the local music store (Long & McQuade) and picked up a couple of pre-made cables, Neutrik XLR-F, 6ft Mogami cable, Neutrik 1/4" TRS, off the rack for $25 each.
 
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