F55: Gratical on F55

G

Gizmosgadget

Active member
Hello all.

Has anyone done a comparison between the DVF-L350 for the F55 and the Gratical? I love the L350 for its large screen than can be viewed without the diopter in place. But I'm looking for something with higher resolution to make focusing a bit easier. Peaking works to a point, but I find I'm getting what I would call "false positives" where focus is off by a tad. I shot a track and field event this weekend and this was an issue.

Thanks for the input.
 
What are your peaking settings? I also have the L350 on my F55 and I don't have any trouble at all focusing even with S-LOG2 and no MLUT, which people say is impossible. :-)

One thing I've noticed is that it's easier to focus with the lens wide open, which is what I'm using 99% of the time. It sounds counter-intuitive but it's actually easier to see focus with a shallow depth of field because the difference between focused and out of focus is more dramatic.
 
Doug Jensen said:
One thing I've noticed is that it's easier to focus with the lens wide open, which is what I'm using 99% of the time. It sounds counter-intuitive but it's actually easier to see focus with a shallow depth of field because the difference between focused and out of focus is more dramatic.
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So you're saying you choose your f-stop based on how it helps you see focus better...?
 
Spartacus said:
So you're saying you choose your f-stop based on how it helps you see focus better...?
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I don't think he said that.. ?.. maybe he's shooting in evening or early morning.. did you have a bad day at the amphitheater..

I have the EYE.. its a pretty good VF for the price..my problems with it were the proximity sensor making the EVF go black for no reason.. Zacuto told me to wait for the VF to "heat up".. and that it couldn't read my iDX battery levels..but the picture itself is good and its half the price of any other decent OLED..
 
Spartacus said:
So you're saying you choose your f-stop based on how it helps you see focus better...?
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No, I didn't say that at all. I always shoot with the lens fully open or maybe one stop down at most for creative (shallow DoF) and image quality (less diffraction and hides dirty sensors) reasons. Why the hell would I go through the hassle of shooting with big sensor cinema cameras if I wasn't going to minimize DoF? If I want lots of DoF I'll use a 2/3" ENG camera. The fact that shooting wide open also helps with focus is just a bonus.
 
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Donny 123 said:
I don't think he said that.. ?.. maybe he's shooting in evening or early morning.. did you have a bad day at the amphitheater..

I have the EYE.. its a pretty good VF for the price..my problems with it were the proximity sensor making the EVF go black for no reason.. Zacuto told me to wait for the VF to "heat up".. and that it couldn't read my iDX battery levels..but the picture itself is good and its half the price of any other decent OLED..
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Little trick I used on the VariCam LT OLED EVF, little piece of gaffer tape over the sensor. I had to do that because the Panasonic EVF was very slow to react when you'd put your eye back up to it. The Sony OLED on my F55 is almost instantaneous. The nice thing about the Graticle, no sensor, it's on constantly.
 
Doug Jensen said:
What are your peaking settings? I also have the L350 on my F55 and I don't have any trouble at all focusing even with S-LOG2 and no MLUT, which people say is impossible. :-)

One thing I've noticed is that it's easier to focus with the lens wide open, which is what I'm using 99% of the time. It sounds counter-intuitive but it's actually easier to see focus with a shallow depth of field because the difference between focused and out of focus is more dramatic.
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Remember when Sony had the "EZ Focus" feature on some of their camera heads? When activated it would automatically open the iris fully and ramp the shutter speed up(if needed) to maintain exposure. Most people would never use this while rolling, just to check focus.
 
The Eye is my favourite EVF by far for the simple fact that it's got almost all the monitoring features you need (except for a opacity matte for frame guides - frame lines are a stupid invention by comparison).

That said, no one does focus peaking better than Sony. That's one area that no one can touch them - not Arri, not Red, not anyone.
 
Run&Gun said:
Remember when Sony had the "EZ Focus" feature on some of their camera heads?
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No, I missed that one! I was 100% Ikegami in the old Betacam days. I didn't move over to Sony until I went HD in 2006.
I have to say that nothing ever looked as good as those old B&W CRT Ikegami viewfinders. Damn those were nice. I'd happily trade my color viewfinders today for super hi-res B&W CRT or LCD. Color means nothing to me while shooting.
 
I usually find that for wider shots, even with the peaking settings kept pretty low, peaking indicates more being in focus than I like - particularly if there are a lot of contrasty edges in the shot.
On the other hand, track and field can be pretty challenging if you're trying to hold focus from medium shot to ecu as the 100m dash is coming towards you with a 300/2.8.
This doesn't work too well outside, but I often rig a 7" SmallHD monitor that I can check with my other eye and keep it at 4x zoom with color peaking to check for sharpness while operating.
 
Run&Gun said:
Little trick I used on the VariCam LT OLED EVF, little piece of gaffer tape over the sensor. I had to do that because the Panasonic EVF was very slow to react when you'd put your eye back up to it. The Sony OLED on my F55 is almost instantaneous. The nice thing about the Graticle, no sensor, it's on constantly.
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Thanks Run n Gun..the good news is that you can actually just switch it off, in the menu.. the EYE that is.. Ive used the LT a while ago ..cant remember that problem as the sensor was also switched off.. cant remember if I did that or it came like that.. wow this LT menus .. nuts.. makes Sony look simple..
 
OnSet said:
I usually find that for wider shots, even with the peaking settings kept pretty low, peaking indicates more being in focus than I like - particularly if there are a lot of contrasty edges in the shot.
On the other hand, track and field can be pretty challenging if you're trying to hold focus from medium shot to ecu as the 100m dash is coming towards you with a 300/2.8.
This doesn't work too well outside, but I often rig a 7" SmallHD monitor that I can check with my other eye and keep it at 4x zoom with color peaking to check for sharpness while operating.
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If you're on a wide shot, your DoF is going to be pretty deep so the peaking is probably being truthful. Whether it's more than you like or not is up to you, but the peaking is probably right. Also, if you are using colored peaking or have the peaking menu settings incorrectly set, then that will give you a false impression of what is in focus.

Focusing with a 7" monitor? Never. All I need is to have my eyeball pressed to the viewfinder to see what is in focus. LCD panels and monitors are big mistake and why a lot of people have trouble. And how am I ever going to follow action with a monitor or by using focus mag? You can't. All you need is a good EVF and your eyeball in the cup. And with peaking tuned just right I don't need focus mag or anything else. Just peaking and a good EVF.
 
I maxed out both the normal peaking level and color peaking level with frequency at normal. I was also using red for the color. I did this so I could see it more clearly outdoors. Fast moving subjects didn't make things any easier. I'm thinking I probably have everything set too high. And most of the time I was shooting wide open. Bottom line is, everything looks in focus on a wide, but when I zoom in, clearly not everything is in focus. I'm trying to figure out how to fine tune that. I thought maybe a higher resolution VF would help.

I even tried focusing without an MLUT. I have no idea how you do it. If I had any hair left I'd have pulled it all out. :)
 
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I used to use red peaking.. but of course going to a wide shot it was very distracting ..so I would be switching it on and off alot.. then I changed to white peaking and leaving it on pretty much the whole time.. I think 60 or something around there.. Ive found that a much better way to work.. havnt used color for a while now.. give that a try.. Alister Chapman has written that even the new Sony EVF .. which Ive tried at a trade show.. on a Venice..and its pretty amazing .. needs a fair bit of peaking.. resolution alone isnt the answer ..
 
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(Off topic) unfortunately the Sony puts out PsF over SDI. With progressive p you could modify the Blackmagic URSA Viewfinder which is amazing and far cheaper than the Zacuto Graticals.
 
Gizmosgadget said:
I maxed out both the normal peaking level and color peaking level with frequency at normal. I was also using red for the color. I did this so I could see it more clearly outdoors. Fast moving subjects didn't make things any easier. I'm thinking I probably have everything set too high. And most of the time I was shooting wide open. Bottom line is, everything looks in focus on a wide, but when I zoom in, clearly not everything is in focus. I'm trying to figure out how to fine tune that. I thought maybe a higher resolution VF would help. I even tried focusing without an MLUT. I have no idea how you do it. If I had any hair left I'd have pulled it all out. :)
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Now we are getting to the crux of the problem:

1) Never use colored peaking. It is evil. Always use the normal mode.
2) Keep the settings around 50, which in most cases is the default settings of the camera anyway.
3) When used correctly peaking is very subtle and you have to train your eye to see it. Until you train your eye you won't think it is working so you starting making changes to the settings that ultimately render peaking worthless -- and then your conclusion is that peaking doesn't work and you need a new viewfinder or an awkward monitor hanging off the camera.

I've run into problem #3 many times with students at workshops I'm teaching. I don't know why but some people simply have more trouble seeing peaking at first. I think maybe they are expecting to see a bigger difference than there really is so they have to be coached to look for the subtle differences peaking brings to the image. But the good news is that I've never had anyone go away from the workshop not wanting to use peaking.

Also, as I tried to say earlier, when you use a wider angle the apparent DoF is much deeper so it is natural for more of the shot to look in focus with peaking. So if you zoom in and you realize the focus was not right on the subject you intended, that does not mean that it wasn't good enough for the wider shot -- even if maybe it was technically off a little bit. Also, if you are using crappy lenses that aren't parfocal it is possible that the focal point is shifting when you zoom, thus making it appear that the shot was out of focus at the wide angle when it was not.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Focusing with a 7" monitor? Never. All I need is to have my eyeball pressed to the viewfinder to see what is in focus. LCD panels and monitors are big mistake and why a lot of people have trouble. And how am I ever going to follow action with a monitor or by using focus mag? You can't. All you need is a good EVF and your eyeball in the cup. And with peaking tuned just right I don't need focus mag or anything else. Just peaking and a good EVF.
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Hi Doug,
I wasn't suggesting trying to follow action with the 7" monitor - or use it for anything other than being able to occasionally check/verify focus with the eye that isn't up against the viewfinder. The 7" is there as an additional focus viewing option, not for framing or operating. For many jobs I end up shooting quite a bit with a 24mm/1.4 lens - and this is where I find the additional 4x picture punch-in particularly helpful - knowing that my clients will often push into 4k footage by 2x during post.
One thing I do when checking a camera before a job is set it up at a 45 degree angle to a wall with small, high contrast detail (think glossy magazine pages mixed in with some Siemens star charts.) This makes it very easy to see not only where the focus distance of the lens is, but also how quickly the focus falls off - particularly when viewing on a large monitor. This is also how I compare vf peaking settings with the DoF for the lens. I started using this kind of setup for checking eng zooms since it also makes it obvious if you get a focus shift during the zoom (and if you do, whether the shift is in one direction, or if it shifts slightly in the middle and returns at the end.)
 
Yeah, I hear what you're saying but I work a little differently. If I am next to the camera I want my eyeball on the viewfinder. And a 5" or 7" monitor hanging on the camera just means I'm going need my reading glasses to see it. The hassles of getting old. The camera is so much simpler to operate and setup without a monitor or 3rd party viewfinder. All of my cameras are setup so they come right out of the case and onto the tripod or my shoulder with no setup or prep needed. Just turn it on and shoot.

But with that said about not wanting an onboard monitor, I don't travel anywhere without my Sony 17" OLED and if I'm indoors lighting an interview or something like that it is always setup on a stand -- over to the side, away from the camera where the client, crew, etc. can see it just as well as I can. A monitor of that size and quality is also instrumental for adjusting lights because I can move around the room and make the changes myself while seeing exactly what the camera is seeing. It is so much more efficient than barking commands to someone else -- "a litle lower, a little to the right, dim it down a little" etc. I just go over to the light and do it myself with no noise and no fuss. But if I've only got a little 5" or 7" monitor onboard that camera, those are not big enough screens to see more than few feet away. A 17" monitor is mandatory on the freelance shoots I do for high-end broadcast and corporate clients. If I show up without one I'll never be called again.
 
This is interesting. Why do you say color peaking is evil? I assume more false positives. Any technical reason for that or just your experience?

I've used red peaking for years and it depends on how well the monitor executes it. Most are terrible but some monitors allow you to dial it down enough where it its useful. I find the Odyssey pretty good but most of the others are useless. For example in the Ex-3 it was terrible but I found it worked well in the EX-1 along with a hoodman loupe.
False positives are always a potential problem though. I recently had a problem with the Odyssey on an interview that freaked me out - but then realized later I had hit the wrong setting and raised the peaking to 80% instead of less than 20.

I'll give vanilla peaking another look though.
 
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Thanks Doug. I'll spend some time with the peaking settings you're suggesting. The color setting has always been very distracting on wide shots. I pulled out the DOF chart for the lens and there's plenty of depth when wide, even at T2.9. The conditions I was shooting in were pretty extreme. Trying to keep athletes in focus for 100M at 200mm at T4 can only work for so long. But I did get some great footage. The R7 made it that much sweeter.
 
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