FS7: Got a hands on C700 & Fs7 II

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Donny 123

Veteran
well have to eat my words .. the C700 in real life with all the buttons glowing.. fancy lens and accessories .. does look pretty good.. it is a bit long.. and with the codex box thing is very long.. fine in a studio but less so for the average doc I would think.. the VF is very nice..(should be for the price).. and the picture was very nice.. to my mind its alot better suited for drama /commercials than doc,s... just by its size... its pretty wide too..a fair bit bigger than an F55 it seemed to me..

Fs7 II .. well I have very limited experience with the Mk1.. the the II solves the nutty VF set up.. and that Vari ND..! thats fantastic.. I want it.. def the future .. I wonder if Sony will sell the license to other makers.. I think it would be the major reason the buy the II over the I... what a piece of brilliance .. so impressive .. its really made me want that function in any future camera purchase..

The 2 Sigma zooms also looked really good..
 
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I have no doubt that the Canon C700 will be a solid camera that makes great images. The primary problem is the price point. At it's current price, it has to compete with some absolutely fantastic cameras. So yes it's good, but is it more than $8,000 better than the Panasonic Varicam LT?
 
Donny 123 said:
Fs7 II .. well I have very limited experience with the Mk1.. the the II solves the nutty VF set up.. and that Vari ND..! thats fantastic.. I want it.. def the future .. I wonder if Sony will sell the license to other makers.. I think it would be the major reason the buy the II over the I... what a piece of brilliance .. so impressive .. its really made me want that function in any future camera purchase..
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I dont doubt this.

I shot a doc this summer where i had to follow my farm girl subjects going from sunny outdoors mountain landscape, and indoors to either the farm building or the living hut while they talked and interacted with each other. So thats going from ND64 to ISO 8000 while removing my cow poop fested shoes to enter a clean cheese production environment. Most of these transition shots are destroyed by the fumbling with ND filters going in the image. So i have to take the audio and use over other images during editing.

Just during shooting in the barn where 2/3 of the wall was open with sun going in, and the whole barn building was unlit with no lighting. Following subjects constantly changing place inside the barn, and then going outside into the sun. Yes, i would love a different ND solution for my next shoot :badputer:
 
Martin.G said:
I
Just during shooting in the barn where 2/3 of the wall was open with sun going in, and the whole barn building was unlit with no lighting. Following subjects constantly changing place inside the barn, and then going outside into the sun.
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sell it to your client as art :-D
 
Donny 123 said:
.. and that Vari ND..! thats fantastic.. I want it.. def the future .. I wonder if Sony will sell the license to other makers.. I think it would be the major reason the buy the II over the I... what a piece of brilliance .. so impressive .. its really made me want that function in any future camera purchase..
Click to expand...


Variable ND has existed for a while, both externally and internally in other cameras(doesn't Red have it as an option?). Did you notice any color shift when using the variable ND? One of the big complaints and what I've seen with the external systems, is a noticeable color shift as you go from one end to the other(light to dark and vice-versa).
 
Run&Gun said:
Variable ND has existed for a while, both externally and internally in other cameras(doesn't Red have it as an option?). Did you notice any color shift when using the variable ND? One of the big complaints and what I've seen with the external systems, is a noticeable color shift as you go from one end to the other(light to dark and vice-versa).
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I think the Sony version is different in that it is an electronic one which enables automatic fine adjustment of ND strength.
 
Run&Gun said:
Variable ND has existed for a while, both externally and internally in other cameras(doesn't Red have it as an option?). Did you notice any color shift when using the variable ND? One of the big complaints and what I've seen with the external systems, is a noticeable color shift as you go from one end to the other(light to dark and vice-versa).
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Yes its not two polar,s rotating around.. its fixed piece of glass with an electric current causing the change.. I didnt see any color change myself.. you can set it to your own pre sets too.. but the variable is super smooth you can set tiny increments .. really its amazing.. will make all types of shoots so much better.. I had read about like everyone else .. but actually using it ..wow ! .. worth the price of the Fs7 alone.. I would be very tempted to buy the fs7 over the F5 for this feature.. the F5 has the LCD screen.. TC in and few other nice things.. but I would use this Vari ND alot more.. and have to buy the TC unit for Audio TC in.. I presume they will be putting it into all their future camera,s.. maybe not the F65 with its mechanical shutter ?..
 
ChristopherA said:
I have no doubt that the Canon C700 will be a solid camera that makes great images. The primary problem is the price point. At it's current price, it has to compete with some absolutely fantastic cameras. So yes it's good, but is it more than $8,000 better than the Panasonic Varicam LT?
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I agree it does seem to be a bit high price wise.. as others have said it will probably come down if sales are no good.. everyone talks about Canon color being great out of the box 709.. possibly so I dont really know for sure.. but at the high end.. where this camera must be wanting a foothold as its price and features.. no one cares about out of the box look.. everything is shot RAW,with the best lenses and graded to buggery.. if a production cant make that look good.. its nothing to do with the camera.. so I cant see the "Canon look" holding alot off sway in that market.. but then its too expensive for the C300 type shoots.. that need it looking good, with tweaking in edit software only..
 
Ben Scott said:
That said still plenty of people shooting Alexa in 709.
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Im sure there is.. but not on those high end drama,s,feature films and commercials.. very least they would be Log.. even alot of stuff I shoot is Slog now.. ! which is not high end at all .. Log is becoming quite usual these days it seems.. there is no way XAVC Slog, at least half way correctly exposed.. is going to give you the "dreaded Sony look" if there is one.. except with an incompetent grader..
 
I shoot almost exclusively in log (currently S-Log / Cine-EI), but the truth is tons of professional broadcast productions don't go anywhere near it.

High high end stuff stuff is slightly different as there are more dedicated post production team members and a tested workflow, but plenty of £100k+ budget productions stay in Rec709 from aquisition to delivery. All depends what we call high end these days...

'Dreaded Sony look' is as much a fault of bad craft and lazy generalisations as 'Red skintones look plastic'.
 
Ben Scott said:
I shoot almost exclusively in log (currently S-Log / Cine-EI), but the truth is tons of professional broadcast productions don't go anywhere near it.

High high end stuff stuff is slightly different as there are more dedicated post production team members and a tested workflow, but plenty of £100k+ budget productions stay in Rec709 from aquisition to delivery. All depends what we call high end these days...

'Dreaded Sony look' is as much a fault of bad craft and lazy generalisations as 'Red skintones look plastic'.
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Yes agree.. my only point was that the it seems the c700 is aiming to be used in very high end productions.. in competition with Alexa/F55 /RED Weapon .. where out of the box look,much trumpeted by Canon,isnt a selling point at all..
 
I think what might make the camera attractive is how easy to use and get results it is. Those considerations have real cost implications on larger shoots.

As for the look - Just because something is shot in log or raw it doesn't mean that the sensor, processing, ASICs and codec aren't hugely important, otherwise every log shooting camera would look like an Arri. Canon's colour science is still playing a large part and once you have completed a transform to whatever colour space you are working in, all that Canony goodness will be there.

I imagine like Red and & Arri they'll sponsor the aquisition of a couple of flagship projects to use as case studies and see how it goes from there.

Also think it's more the dipping of the toes into the water of a new design ethos from them and new models in this style will follow soon.
 
Donny 123 said:
Yes its not two polar,s rotating around.. its fixed piece of glass with an electric current causing the change.. I didnt see any color change myself.. you can set it to your own pre sets too.. but the variable is super smooth you can set tiny increments .. really its amazing.. will make all types of shoots so much better.. I had read about like everyone else .. but actually using it ..wow ! .. worth the price of the Fs7 alone.. I would be very tempted to buy the fs7 over the F5 for this feature.. the F5 has the LCD screen.. TC in and few other nice things.. but I would use this Vari ND alot more.. and have to buy the TC unit for Audio TC in.. I presume they will be putting it into all their future camera,s.. maybe not the F65 with its mechanical shutter ?..
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I've seen those types of systems before in glass in commercial/residential applications. That would be very cool if someone could implement that into a drop-in filter unit you could slap in your matte box or even a screw-on.
 
Ben Scott said:
I think what might make the camera attractive is how easy to use and get results it is. Those considerations have real cost implications on larger shoots.

As for the look - Just because something is shot in log or raw it doesn't mean that the sensor, processing, ASICs and codec aren't hugely important, otherwise every log shooting camera would look like an Arri. Canon's colour science is still playing a large part and once you have completed a transform to whatever colour space you are working in, all that Canony goodness will be there.



I imagine like Red and & Arri they'll sponsor the aquisition of a couple of flagship projects to use as case studies and see how it goes from there.

Also think it's more the dipping of the toes into the water of a new design ethos from them and new models in this style will follow soon.
Click to expand...


Yes good points.. we will have to agree to disagree re RAW.. yes 12 bit RAW from an Fs7 will not be the same as 16 bit RAW from an F55..but quite honestly I do think the fabled Arri 709 can be very closely matched with 16 bit RAW.. how many billion combinations there.. even Slog.. a good grader can do this easily. Arri have that market because they are Arri,its a good camera that would work with all the film high end add on,s.. they got in early with high end digital camera,s and producers feel save with the know and tested work flow.. not for its REC709 out of the box picture.. in my opinion anyway..
 
Martin.G said:
I dont doubt this.

I shot a doc this summer where i had to follow my farm girl subjects going from sunny outdoors mountain landscape, and indoors to either the farm building or the living hut while they talked and interacted with each other. So thats going from ND64 to ISO 8000 while removing my cow poop fested shoes to enter a clean cheese production environment. Most of these transition shots are destroyed by the fumbling with ND filters going in the image. So i have to take the audio and use over other images during editing.

Just during shooting in the barn where 2/3 of the wall was open with sun going in, and the whole barn building was unlit with no lighting. Following subjects constantly changing place inside the barn, and then going outside into the sun. Yes, i would love a different ND solution for my next shoot :badputer:
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The electronic ND is a game-changer indeed.

I don't see how this technology doesn't make its way to Arri and Red before long. No doubt many feature film DP's would love the ability to remain at a desired stop regardless of the light level being captured. And no longer find themselves "caught" between fixed ND values. Sony deserves a major kudos for being the first to offer the infinitely variable ND. And I also give Sony credit for answering to so many of the quibbles with the Fs7. That they bothered with a revised lens mount is remarkable.

I think the Canon aficionados have yet to realize what a devastating blow Sony's infinitely variable ND is to the Canon C300 / C500. The Fs7 already had the C300 on the ground. This is a kick to the C300's nads, just for good measure. No doubt there is some mad scrambling over at the Canon labs and some heads rolled.
 
Would be brilliant if someone could develop the tech to function in a standard 4x5.65" filter tray. Just to cover those two stops up or two stops down that you get outdoors on days with intermittent clouds.

I'm looking into the Tiffen Rota Pola for just this reason - my thinking is that, combined with a regular ND, you'd avoid having to crank it up all the way (density-wise) to the point where you start introducing artifacts. The sweet spot is probably two stops of compensation on a variable ND, that lets you open up two stops when clouds roll in, and close down two stops when the sun comes out in full, whilst keeping away from the problematic issues inherent to using two polarisers.
 
Grug said:
Would be brilliant if someone could develop the tech to function in a standard 4x5.65" filter tray. Just to cover those two stops up or two stops down that you get outdoors on days with intermittent clouds.

I'm looking into the Tiffen Rota Pola for just this reason - my thinking is that, combined with a regular ND, you'd avoid having to crank it up all the way (density-wise) to the point where you start introducing artifacts. The sweet spot is probably two stops of compensation on a variable ND, that lets you open up two stops when clouds roll in, and close down two stops when the sun comes out in full, whilst keeping away from the problematic issues inherent to using two polarisers.
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Your post caused it to occur to me- Why isn't there infinitely variable ISO? White balance went from being presets to infinitely variable, so why not with ISO as well? ( engineering types? anyone? ). When the clouds roll in the operator could gradually dial up the ISO and thus be able to leave the iris fixed. Obviously the ( near ) infinitely variable ND is a better solution. But it never before occurred to me why ISO is always stepped. Or, is it? Does auto ISO work incrementally or in big steps?

[ after writing the above I did an online search and found this discussion that, while above my head, delves into the video engineering limitations: http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/27020/variable-iso-sensor-possible-and-or-useful ]
 
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