Got a chance to put EX1 up against HVX

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I always enjoy reading your post Kholi!

:beer:

... (reported to be helmed on HVX200's, proof still pending).
...

Actually "Variety" is reporting this:

"The film starts out with the Panasonic, then moves into transitional sequences shot with a 3-lb. Canon for about a third of the film."


When I read it and read that the titles for George Clooney's Leatherheads were filmed on the HV20 I actually thought of you.

No joke. :thumbsup:

 

[Stevet]

Stills are stills, agreed!
Also, let's face it, with all due respect to the person who shot these, why was the white balance not corrected? Bring the shots into your editor and white balance them. The EX1 was way cool, and the HVX200 was also a bit on the cool side.
I brought them both in and it sure makes a huge difference.

Also, for the sake of the HVX200, was there not enough light in the skateboard shot? Looking at the sun hitting the background, it appears as there was enough light to offer a better exposure.

 

[Stevet]

Like I said, I guess it's possible that it's just motion blur but everyone who watched the waveform monitor was like "whoa, what's happening here?" I'm not escalating this to the point of "ooh, this is a problem, don't buy it", but I am saying that it's curious and it seemed a lot more pronounced on the EX1 than on any other camera I've used or tested.

I

Thanks Barry.

Is there a more definative test?
It seems somewhat normal for movement, but does leave a bit of wondering.

Since higher shutter speeds improve motion clarity (as it should), It just doesn't make sense that if there is some sort of detail coring or dynamic noise reduction that it would react less to a higher shutter speed. Also noise levels seem consistent regardless of shutter speed.

Having said this, I believe this is what you were saying in your post.
If you can think of a way of gaging this, I'd be interested in your results.

 

[Michael Friedman]

Actually "Variety" is reporting this:

"The film starts out with the Panasonic, then moves into transitional sequences shot with a 3-lb. Canon for about a third of the film."

Which camera are they talking about. The Canon A1? I am trying to think of another 3lb canon. ...

 

[RE1000]

Here's some "problem" samples

Strobe test showing partial exposure.

EX1 Wobble footage

Skewing

 

[PhantomVideo]

I will say that after shooting with some Sony cameras I always think there is something strange with the way motion is rendered in 24p with them. Maybe it is the powerful hold DVX user has over me )) but when shooting on the F350 it always looks weird to my eye. I much prefer the look of my DVX in motion. I even remember seeing it on the F900 on a shoot a little while ago. I don't know what it is, but to me it's there and I am always a little weary of Sony cams because of it.

That said, overall I do like very much shooting with the F350. The work flow is great and it does make pretty pictures.

totally just like collateraill it was one of the first big pictures to be shoot with the F900 anytime anyone moves quick it just looks like weird video

 

[SPZ]

totally just like collateraill it was one of the first big pictures to be shoot with the F900 anytime anyone moves quick it just looks like weird video

I always tought Collateral, as well as Miami Vice, where shot with a 24or 25 shutter for that strange motion look- but from your comments, it feels like it is really a Sony motion interpretation thing... If that is so, I'd ratter deinterlace than use Sony's 24p...

 

[Life in a Box Films]

That's DEFINITELY a surprise to me. Because, it looks like the EX-1 is the one being misrepped so early in it's life. Stills do nothing. The video posted there makes the EX-1 look like garbage, honestly.

The sky rendered in the skateboard footage looks like bad greenscreen. The motion rendering is really strange-looking when the guy's moving. People really do see with different eyes, I would DEFINITELY choose the HVX over the EX-1 if this was the footage that was going to make or break my decision.

Again, Stills mean very little when you consider the camera isn't made to produce stills, but moving images.

Yes it's odd, I've seen many people say the EX wins, but in these tests, overall to me the HVX produces a much more pleasing image, referring specifically to the skate footage. It actually stood out to me quite immediately.

The EX is sharper, but still looks very video next to the HVX.

I've contemplated swapping my HVX for the EX, as with some color correction, you might be able to bring the images pretty close. But I'm really concerned about the 25 sec it takes to go back and forth on the camera modes. This along with the the cmos oddities, makes it a tough sell, at least if one already has an HVX and has to go through the process of selling and such.

If I was starting from square one, it would be a hard decision.

 

[Steve Shovlar]

Well I am pleased to say my HVX sold on ebay over the weekend I am will soon have in my hands one of these super Sony EX1's with two 16 Gb cards. 140 minute recording over the two cards as well.

I liked my HVX, but it had some serious shortcomings and was next to useless in darker spaces where it was impossible to bring in lighting. The blocky grain was just too much to live with in the end, and the P2 solution, although solid, has the draw back of the cards being too small. I had a firestore, also just sold, which got over that problem but then I had the added inconvenience of carrying a bit of a large weight.

I have read Barrys judgement on here, but I would like to say, if the EX1 had been brought out by Panasonic, whould he have written an identical post? Please don't take this as a dig Barry. Just an honest question.

The Sony is a better lens, sharper image, bigger and better chips, superior low light and a whole heap of advantages over the HVX. But then it should as its a more expensive camera. Sure, there are things the HVX does better, like the solid DVCPOHD Codec, but overall the Sony wins out IMO, and Panasonic need to come back to the table with a HVX300 that will have me putting this new EX1 on Ebay.

I pride myself with not being in any camp. I liked my FX1 when it came out. But the HVX200 was better, so the FX1 went to someone else. Now Sony have upped the anti with the EX1, so out goes my HVX200. The footage posted on here has been poor quality, but you don't need to look any further than Phil Blooms footage to see just how well the camera performs. Some are saying it looks like video and not film, but it has 24P and its a case of setting the camera up to get the look you like. It's a cleaner image but if you like the grain of the HVX its easy enough to add it in post. Or stick with the HVX.

I got a good price for my HVX, and I really felt it was the right time to sell it. With the EX1 coming along and selling like hot cakes, I expect to se a lot of used HVX200's on Ebay as many upgrade.

So come on Panasonic, prove to me that I made the wrong call in buying the EX1. Bring out a show stopper in the hVX300, with bigger chips, sharper and better lenas, much cheaper and much bigger P2 cards and ahost of inovations so that I would be able to resist/

 

[reem12]

Steve that was a very balanced post,but let me tell you in reference to the ex1s 24p, 25p filmlook.

i'm a major phillip bloom fan and groupy so to speak,but when i downloaded his quicktime file from his ex1 footage and put it to dvd for playback on the tv.it screamed
vidddddeo!mainly in the motion,and the color did not render as nearly rich as the hvx.

i did the same process with posted footage from the hvx and its filmlook probably coul of fooled spielberg.

 

[taormina]

Steve - I think barry's views about SxS and startup times are very valid. Either the camera misbehaves this way or it doesn't. Plus rolling shutter.

So you given some up to get some. It all depends on what works for you.

 

[Barry_Green]

I have read Barrys judgement on here, but I would like to say, if the EX1 had been brought out by Panasonic, whould he have written an identical post? Please don't take this as a dig Barry. Just an honest question.

If Panasonic had introduced this identical product, and Sony had previously introduced the HVX identical as it is now, then yes you would have seen an identical post. Word for word. I'm a fan of the Panasonic cams because of the product, not because of the brand. I used Sony and Sony only up until the DVX came out. Bought one of the first VX1000s and endlessly rented the DSR250, DSR300, PD150, VX2000, and DSR500.

The DVX changed everything. It was revolutionary. It opened up markets. It was a no-compromise product at a great price point. It was sooooo much better than anything else anywhere near its price point, that I got rid of my Sony cams and got one. The HVX was the same way -- it wasn't just an HD HVX, they added tapeless and variable frame rates too, both revolutionary steps. Since the DVX I keep looking to see what else is out there; bought an HD100 (crap), ordered an XHA1 (got it as a rental instead to evaluate, found it was no big deal and no reason to switch), bought an HV20 (gave it away), and put the EX1 through its paces, and have ordered a Red One.

I believe better is better, so I keep looking for better. The Sony's image is sharper, yes, but in many workflow ways it's a *huge* step back from the P2 system. I thought the overall product was not, collectively, "better" than what I already had. Some things were, some things were definitely not.

The Sony is a better lens

How?

sharper image

Yep.

bigger [chips]

Yep.

and better chips

Hell no. CMOS rolling shutter sucks.

superior low light

Yes.

and a whole heap of advantages over the HVX

Name one. Besides the three I allowed for up above, and the better LCD and HD-SDI ports, what is a single advantage the EX1 has over the HVX? From my perspective it's all downhill after those things. It's impossible to handhold, it's an ergonomic nightmare, its SxS workflow pales in comparison to P2, its rolling shutter makes certain types of shots either less-useful or downright unusable, you can't stream video (except HDV), it doesn't have a host mode, it doesn't have any provision for standard-def, it doesn't have a tape drive for those times when you just need to shoot a tape and hand it off to someone, etc. And it costs 30% more. Do its advantages, and the disadvantages, translate into you thinking it's worth 30% more? If so, it's the right product for you. But all those factors have to be weighed together.

I'm not saying it's a bad product. I'm just saying that there are many factors that should go into someone's decision, and it'd be helpful to focus on what *is*, rather than what the marketing departments tell us.

But then it should as its a more expensive camera. Sure, there are things the HVX does better, like the solid DVCPOHD Codec, but overall the Sony wins out IMO, and Panasonic need to come back to the table with a HVX300 that will have me putting this new EX1 on Ebay.

If you've weighed the factors and decided that overall the EX1 suits your purposes better, that's great -- you've done your homework and come to your decision. But not everyone will weigh the factors equally. Those who just chant that the EX1 is "better" do a disservice to those who may weigh other factors very differently than the EX1-buyer did. So it's in everyone's best interests to discuss what the product is, warts and all.

I pride myself with not being in any camp.

I pride myself in being in one camp: the user's. With an emphasis on the filmmakers and production company's users, but with a perspective on all users and what's the right product for them.

Look, I hate using the FireStore. But for certain uses it's unquestionably the "better" choice. I hate HDV, everyone knows that, but for certain uses it's the right choice. I hate the rolling shutter, everyone knows that -- I'm producing a doc in 2008 on two rolling-shutter HV20's in HDV. Why? Because they're the ideal camera for this doc! An HVX would be an extraordinarily inconvenient choice for this particular picture, and even a DVX is way too big for this particular pic.

So come on Panasonic, prove to me that I made the wrong call in buying the EX1. Bring out a show stopper in the hVX300, with bigger chips, sharper and better lenas, much cheaper and much bigger P2 cards and ahost of inovations so that I would be able to resist/

I don't know that they will though -- they serve the market that they serve, and they'll probably make their product better for that market (or invent a new market, etc). But if you've moved on, that's fine, that doesn't mean that the rest of the market has, you know what I mean? People find this hard to fathom, but Panasonic still sells *lots* of DVX100s. If we only went by what DVXUsers read, you'd think the DVX was d.o.a., but I still sell probably four DVX books for every one copy of The HVX Book. There are tons of them out there and they still move, even though many of our users on this board would think that 4:3 SD is long dead.

We used to engage in heavy camcorder wars about "this is the only choice, etc". We don't need to do that anymore. Finally most everyone's on the same page with the basics: HD, 16:9, 24P. You can get that from every major manufacturer now. When we had the camcorder wars it was because there was really only one manufacturer offering an ideal filmmaker's cam, the DVX. Now you can get an XHA1, HD100, XLH1, EX1, HVX, HV20, HV30, V1U, etc. They're everywhere. So it's no longer about such an obvious choice as "should I use the VX2000 or the DVX" -- sorry, that was an *obvious* choice. Or "should I use the FX1 or the HVX" -- that was also a *painfully obvious" choice. Now it's a case of that they all have the core basic feature set, so there's not really any "wrong" choice, there are different choices, but there are BIG differences between those choices for certain users.

That's what our task in 2008 is going to be, is to educate buyers on what the differences are so they can make an *educated*, *informed* choice -- not a fanboy choice, of the type that has existed in the past and results in people "piling on" to the "popular choice". Just because something's popular does not make it the right choice.

 

[Stevet]

I'm sorry video has always looked like video to me....
It doesn't matter which camera. Some may be a bit more convincing, but it's not dramatic. It's a lot to do with composition, so yes controlled DOF is important.
It gives your eyes somewhere to focus instead of a large flat image.
Cadence is also important. Stepping though 24 frames, is stepping through 24 frames.... Interframe vs Intraframe. Yes, I agree group frame compression is not the best, but also poor frame to frame compression is not good either.

Video noise............. Don't get me going here..... hate it... no matter if someone really "wants" to believe it looks like film grain. I dislike it regardless of ANY video camera. Also, believe me. I could care less who make a camera. Heck, if Matel came out with one that produced decent footage at a reasonable cost, it would catch my attention.
I'm hoping RED Scarlet turns into something along the lines of the EX1 / HVX, but improves over both at a decent cost.

 

[dlang]

You know I'm a little confused. After going through the test shoot comparison I've come out liking the image of the HVX200 better. As I went through the pictures it was clear the Ex1 exceeded in things I drool over aka....sharpness, low light, clean image, yet I couldn't help but be drawn to the HVX image?? The EX1 just seemed to be, like has already been said, too videoish' like BBC or something.
This is where I'm confused what is making it seem that way? Is the fact that it is sharper making it look more like video? is it the way it renders color? The HVX was definately softer but just look more like film.

 

[Stevet]

Those who just chant that the EX1 is "better" do a disservice to those who may weigh other factors very differently than the EX1-buyer did.

Amen!
That's what i've been saying right along. You really need to try before buy!
This is a costly adventure. Make sure it does what "you" want not someone elses perception.

 

[Stevet]

You know I'm a little confused. After going through the test shoot comparison I've come out liking the image of the HVX200 better. As I went through the pictures it was clear the Ex1 exceeded in things I drool over aka....sharpness, low light, clean image, yet I couldn't help but be drawn to the HVX image?? The EX1 just seemed to be, like has already been said, too videoish' like BBC or something.
This is where I'm confused what is making it seem that way? Is the fact that it is sharper making it look more like video? is it the way it renders color? The HVX was definately softer but just look more like film.

Then, you've answered your question. If you like the look and it's capabilites (Which it excels in), it's the right camera for you.

 

[reem12]

if your shooting indi films i'd recomend the hvx 200, and if your shooting reality tv, go for the ex1.it's all about your shooting needs.

 

[JConnors]

If anyone can use a conventional top-loading mattebox I'd like to know which brand. I've had Chrosziel, CAVision, and now Vocas, and I don't see how any of 'em could work with this EX1.

I don't think there's way to clear that mic for top loading, our 4x5.65 clamp on matte box, the filters need to be inserted from the bottom, that's really the only way we've been able to mount it, and it clears the mic. http://www.cavision.com/pictures/EX1/EX1.htm

And yeah, why the hell does Sony do this, same thing with the Z1U/FX1, pain in the ass to get around.

J

 

[Ted Spencer]

Here's some "problem" samples

Strobe test showing partial exposure.

EX1 Wobble footage

Skewing

All very informative, Thanks.

But the "skewing "clip...it skews all nasty for certain, but wait a second...does this also illustrate the motion-based resolution loss that Barry noted in his review? Or is it a YouTube compression artifact? If it's the former, it (along with the nasty skewing) it would seem to be a real concern. The background in the shot goes wicked blurry/lo-rez looking as the camera pans, in a way that is not at all familiar to my eye vs my HVX or a film camera.

I'd be particularly interested in hearing what Barry makes of this particular clip.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Hey Stevet~

Have you been able to replicate the skewing with the back and forth earthquake shaking?

Can you post some clips of a few pans with motion in the shot?

Thanks! :beer: