Goodbye Zoom

[IronFilm]

And the SD devices will A) last forever B) retain value for a long time. A 702 is about 3X the price of a F4. In terms of features the F4 wins, tracks, TC, etc. But you could probably drive a car over the SD box and have it survive and that is not going to happen with the F4. The F4 will probably not be worth +50% of what you paid for it in ten years and the SD probably will.

My Sound Devices 552 was purchased only 6 years after it was announced, and I paid much much less than 50% for it! Shockingly less.

The Zoom F4 will undoubtedly for sure lose less value (as even if it loses 100%, it still has lost less dollars than the 552 did for the seller!).

BUT that formulas if very personal, and has many years of experience behind it. If I was new I would probably lean to the 702 because I probably can't break it and I wouldn't know the demands of what I would be doing yet. I suspect that if I were doing a lot of run and gun or doc work I would lean to the 702 because of durability and ease of service. The F4 in that case I would be leery of the lack of track record. It could be a rock, but it hasn't been out long enough for anyone to know.

The F4/F8 has been out long enough, and has so many users, that you can have similar confidence in it as you would in Sound Devices gear too.

 

[legrevedotcom]

Thanks, I think I will invest in the Sound Devices MixPre-3

Be aware... the battery time on the new MixPres is appalling... I bought the 3 primarily for using with my computer and xlr mic, but if you want to use it on the go you basically have to buy something like the Anchor usb-c powersupply. Be sure to get the one with enough output...

 

[davefisk]

Be aware... the battery time on the new MixPres is appalling... I bought the 3 primarily for using with my computer and xlr mic, but if you want to use it on the go you basically have to buy something like the Anchor usb-c powersupply. Be sure to get the one with enough output...

It depends. With alkaline batteries, yeah, the battery life is pretty non-existent. With AA rechargeable NiMH batteries in the 8xAA sled. Not so bad. If you need more power, then yes, an external power source is required. This is pretty standard with any field recorder ever made.

 

[Noiz2]

My Sound Devices 552 was purchased only 6 years after it was announced, and I paid much much less than 50% for it! Shockingly less.

The Zoom F4 will undoubtedly for sure lose less value (as even if it loses 100%, it still has lost less dollars than the 552 did for the seller!).

Well you got a deal, looking at used prices I don't see the drop you are talking about. There are one offs that are much under the going rate every once in awhile but as a rule SD holds value quite well.

The F4/F8 has been out long enough, and has so many users, that you can have similar confidence in it as you would in Sound Devices gear too.

This is argument is VERY dependent on what kind of work you are doing. MiniDisk had "many users" also, but that did not make it an acceptable format for most professional situations.

Don't get me wrong I thing the new Zoom recorders are great. The best bang for the buck in a pro/ prosumer recorder. But it has a plastic case, it has not had years of field testing and Zoom does not have a stellar track record. So if I'm getting the big bucks to record stuff out in the field or I'm doing a feature for real money then I'm probably not going to risk my job/ career on a Zoom. If I'm doing FX in the field then maybe as long as I have a backup I can depend on.

I suspect that the Zoom F4/8 will work out and that bugs and quirks will get fixed and it will become the goto recorder for low budget and even maybe mid budget shows. And FX recordists will use them a ton. But right now they are still "new" and are not something I could recommend as your only recorder. It wasn't that long ago where some poor shmuck in the field discovered the white screen of death bug. That only happens to you once on a big show.

 

[ozmorphasis]

Be aware... the battery time on the new MixPres is appalling... I bought the 3 primarily for using with my computer and xlr mic, but if you want to use it on the go you basically have to buy something like the Anchor usb-c powersupply. Be sure to get the one with enough output...

I do find it pretty annoying that the 8x sled is $70. With really good rechargeable AA batteries in the 4x sled, I bring a small usb powerbank and then have the peace of mind of getting about 2 hours of backup from the built in batteries with no glitches if power is interrupted from the powerbank mid-recording. The combination has served me fine for all day shoots. Also, running in low power mode (normal usb cable, not usb-c with the double connector) has been totally fine for nearly every use case for me.

I wish someone would make an ultralight, ultra-thin y-cable (2x usb3 to usb-c) as the one included by sound devices is very thick and heavy and feels like it is always straining the tiny usb-c input on the mixpre. Something short and svelte would be fantastic.

 

[IronFilm]

Well you got a deal, looking at used prices I don't see the drop you are talking about. There are one offs that are much under the going rate every once in awhile but as a rule SD holds value quite well.

Yes, I won't deny I got a crazy good deal! I paid less than a quarter for it than I have ever seen the lowest price of it ever go for!

But where are you looking, it isn't hard to see it for less than half price of new? (though you'd have to be a bit nuts to pay the new price!) Heck, even nearly a third of the new price is easy to find! (and with a little patience and hard work, even a quarter of the price of new or less)

Just jump on eBay and more than half of those listed are going for a bit more than a third of the new cost! (39%)
The cheapest one is going for a third of the price, and even the most expensive one is only a few hundred more.

And those are easiest possible ones to find for sale, only takes 2 seconds.

Don't get me wrong I thing the new Zoom recorders are great. The best bang for the buck in a pro/ prosumer recorder.

We're on the same page there!

But it has a plastic case

Have you used one? My case is mostly metal.

it has not had years of field testing and Zoom does not have a stellar track record.

It might be more accurate to state that prior to the F8/F4 that Zoom had **NO** track record in the field recorders category. (unlike Tascam/Rolland/etc)

As this is Zoom's first entry into this market niche.

However, the Zoom F8 has now been out for over two years (& is over a year since the F4 was announced).

So we do have some years worth of track record to assess Zoom with now. And I'd say it is nothing but a success story!

So if I'm getting the big bucks to record stuff out in the field or I'm doing a feature for real money then I'm probably not going to risk my job/ career on a Zoom. If I'm doing FX in the field then maybe as long as I have a backup I can depend on.

Absolutely, if you're doing this full time as your career for decades worth, and you're getting constantly only full rate jobs, then of course you should buy Sound Devices! (or Zaxcom, or Sonosax, or Anton, etc)

As a few thousand on a recorder is nothing when considering the big picture of your entire $50K+ sound package (or even many times more than that!), especially when you consider the per year cost for you.

But for someone like myself, who does full rate jobs every month, but also does a healthy mix of low/no budget shoots too, then I'm perfectly happy with my Zoom F4.
And I won't be upgrading to a 633/Maxx/SX-R4+ until next year (or maybe, depending on how work pans out, I might even skip those entirely and get myself a 688 instead the year after next?! Another option, is I might just wait it out until the 664 replacement comes out. As that is surely the 1st one up for replacement in the 600 series range, and that update should only be a year or two away from being announced)

I suspect that the Zoom F4/8 will work out and that bugs and quirks will get fixed and it will become the goto recorder for low budget and even maybe mid budget shows. And FX recordists will use them a ton.

But right now they are still "new" and are not something I could recommend as your only recorder.

Well of course it shouldn't be your only recorder! Even if you own a 633 or higher recorder, that also shouldn't be your only recorder!

As part of being a professional you should always have back up plans for everything. And that is why I am keeping my Tascam DR680 / Sound Devices 552 (although I sold off my 2nd DR680). Heck, even for a total no budget student film where I want to keep my gear I bring to the minimum, I'll still have in my gear bag a Tascam DR22WL + ME66/ME64 as an ultra extreme scenario back up option (and ultra compact too!).

As for Zoom F8 being "new", has been out for over two years now. Plenty of time to assess it.

It wasn't that long ago where some poor shmuck in the field discovered the white screen of death bug.

That was only for the earliest of earliest production run models, and even then, only a very small number of them (remember Zoom must have sold thousands and thousands of these! Far more than Zaxcom sells, or Sound Devices).

Zoom's response to this has been nothing short of excellent customer service.

The newer F8 models (i.e. the vast vast majority of those out there), and all of the newer F4 model, have had no such issues.

This doesn't strike me as being a big black mark against Zoom, but instead just a minor hiccup. I have been around long enough to see many issues reported with the 633 (and many other pro recorders, for instance my friend just purchased a new Sonosax SX-R4+ and he has already had an issue with it) when it first was released as well! Do we always avoid Sound Devices because of that? Of course not. Is just teething issues, and if we're of really super cautious nature, we can always avoid buying new products from Sound Devices within the first year.

 

[Noiz2]

It might be more accurate to state that prior to the F8/F4 that Zoom had **NO** track record in the field recorders category. (unlike Tascam/Rolland/etc)

As this is Zoom's first entry into this market niche.

Actually not the case. They have a fairly long record with field recorders, the F series is the first of theirs that are not handheld but they have been making field recorders for a long time. And those recorders were used a lot by FX recordists and low budget filmmakers. It is those recorders that Zoom got a bad reputation from because they had some big flaws in the construction, Things broke easily on them and the markings wore off.

The F series has a good reputation so overall it has helped Zooms reputation quite a bit.

Time fly's ... You are right they have been out longer than I was thinking. So I did some research. Two years with out too many huge issues, there have been a few like the white screen (which maybe because of old stock still being sold? still crops up sometimes) and external power connector failures, a weird issue with shutting down with tracks armed, etc.

BUT you are correct that it doesn't seem like there are noticeably more problems than other devices including SD, which had it's own white screed issue, AND Zoom support has been fantastic for the F series. Litterally I couldn't find anyone complaining about Zoom support for any of the F series issues that came up.

I didn't see any issues around fragility (the exception may be the Hirose power connector that some are having issues with). Also the F8 looks to be getting a fair amount of work in a variety of shows, some seem to be with a fairly decent budget. And they appear on a fair number of sound carts next to gear that sells for a lot more than the Zoom does.

So...

If budget were no issue I would buy something other than Zoom for a couple of reasons, mostly ruggedness and slightly better high end compatibility. It probably wouldn't be a SD though since I find their recorders rather awkward to use. But when has budget not been an issue? For probably 99% of the people on this list a Zoom F series is a better choice than a comparable SD recorder.

 

[IronFilm]

Actually not the case. They have a fairly long record with field recorders, the F series is the first of theirs that are not handheld but they have been making field recorders for a long time.

Nope, none of those recorders were designed specifically for the location sound recordist for film.

People did repurpose the likes of say a Zoom H4n, as indie filmmakers were desperate for multi track XLR portable recorders at an extremely low price. (especially when the HDSLR revolution hit, and dual system sound became even more important in the indie film world, rather than just running an XLR cable straight into a DVX100 etc)

But the H4n never was intended for that purpose, rather for other things such as garage musicians to record themselves (thus why the H4n had awful pre amps for quiet dialogue, never intended for that! But was perfectly adequate on a budget to cope with recording much louder music).

Thus Zoom's F series is indeed their first entry in this market.

The F series has a good reputation so overall it has helped Zooms reputation quite a bit.

Time fly's ... You are right they have been out longer than I was thinking. So I did some research. Two years with out too many huge issues, there have been a few like the white screen (which maybe because of old stock still being sold? still crops up sometimes) and external power connector failures, a weird issue with shutting down with tracks armed, etc.

Time flies by indeed. It is amazing when you think about everything that has happened at the low end recently for the aspiring sound recordist on a budget over the last couple of years ish or so:

Low priced TC: Tentacle Sync, and then now at this year's NAB an *explosion* of other alternatives!! (Ultrasync ONE is my favourite, I purchased two)
More resources to learn from: Matt Price's YT Channel + WavReport website. (plus my channel too? ;-) Ha, a little plug here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCniNTuAtkFiSCQNfIaw9SJw )
A tonne of very affordable and great field recorders: Tascam DR70D + MixPre3/6/10T + Zoom F4/F8 (could add the Tascam DR10L perhaps in this list too, another nice little innovation too for some uses, at a very low price)
More microphones and soon more wireless hitting the market: Aputure Deity (a 416 clone?) + RodeLinks + Saramonic UwMic9 + Senal AWS-2000 ( + Aputure's future wireless system?!).

I'd argue that possibly we're in the midst of experiencing the "HDSLR Revolution" but for sound? In how we're seeing many pro features/quality/knowledge/capabilities now being within the grasp of the indie filmmaker.


Anyway, the "white screen of death" only was an issue with a few early models (that Zoom promptly took care of). No reason at all to fear this now.
As for external power failures, remember the vast majority of buyers of the F8 have never owned pro grade recorders and the use of external power is likely foreign to them (and they don't want to buy expensive NP1 BDS setups). So user misuse here is 10,000,000x more likely than hardware failure! (Arguably Zoom maybe should never have had a DC in option with the F8, and only had hirose)
What is this weird issue you talk about shutting down?! Never heard of this before (and I follow the F8/F4 groups *very* closely!), no idea what you're referring to.

BUT you are correct that it doesn't seem like there are noticeably more problems than other devices including SD, which had it's own white screed issue, AND Zoom support has been fantastic for the F series. Litterally I couldn't find anyone complaining about Zoom support for any of the F series issues that came up.

Yup! I've been very impressed with Zoom's customer service responses that I've observed.

Also the F8 looks to be getting a fair amount of work in a variety of shows, some seem to be with a fairly decent budget. And they appear on a fair number of sound carts next to gear that sells for a lot more than the Zoom does.

Yeah, many of the more open minded pros are even buying an F8/F4 to have as a secondary recorder to their SD 688 / Zaxcom Nomad / Aaton X3 / whatever.

And there are certainly many full time professionals with an F4/F8 as their primary recorder.

If budget were no issue I would buy something other than Zoom for a couple of reasons, mostly ruggedness and slightly better high end compatibility. It probably wouldn't be a SD though since I find their recorders rather awkward to use. But when has budget not been an issue? For probably 99% of the people on this list a Zoom F series is a better choice than a comparable SD recorder.

I've seen people using an F8/F4 in quite extreme conditions (deserts/arctic/etc) without issue. And it feels quite rugged in the hand.

As for high end compatibility, yeah having say Superslot options like with the 688 or digital in/out, would all be nice. But practically speaking for 95% of F8/F4 buyers, such things are irrelevant.

Yes, I agree, for probably 99% of dvxuser browsers, a Zoom F4/F8 would be a better value choice. I think if a person buys a Sound Devices MixPre 3 or 6, that those are very nice machines too, but you are paying a significant premium for the "Sound Devices name".

 

[Noiz2]

Nope, none of those recorders were designed specifically for the location sound recordist for film.

People did repurpose the likes of say a Zoom H4n, as indie filmmakers were desperate for multi track XLR portable recorders at an extremely low price. (especially when the HDSLR revolution hit, and dual system sound became even more important in the indie film world, rather than just running an XLR cable straight into a DVX100 etc)

But the H4n never was intended for that purpose, rather for other things such as garage musicians to record themselves (thus why the H4n had awful pre amps for quiet dialogue, never intended for that! But was perfectly adequate on a budget to cope with recording much louder music).

Thus Zoom's F series is indeed their first entry in this market.

Well practically speaking hardly anybody produced recorders specifically for film production work. Recorders are multi use and the Zoom handhelds were used a LOT by FX recorders on big budget films. And Zoom actively promoted them to the indi filmmaker market.

So yes this is the first line primarily targeting filmmakers, but a lot of filmmakers and sound professionals do have a track record with the earlier products, and that is the track record Zoom needs to overcome.

Anyway, the "white screen of death" only was an issue with a few early models (that Zoom promptly took care of). No reason at all to fear this now.
As for external power failures, remember the vast majority of buyers of the F8 have never owned pro grade recorders and the use of external power is likely foreign to them (and they don't want to buy expensive NP1 BDS setups). So user misuse here is 10,000,000x more likely than hardware failure! (Arguably Zoom maybe should never have had a DC in option with the F8, and only had hirose)

I saw a post about someone having the white screen of death a couple of months ago. As I said I'm not sure if this is just a case of old stock still being sold? Zoom has not released serial numbers of affected units so if you are buying from a discount dealer you may still have an issue. The power plug issues I was reading on JW Sound so these were professionals, or want-to-be professionals.

What is this weird issue you talk about shutting down?! Never heard of this before (and I follow the F8/F4 groups *very* closely!), no idea what you're referring to.

There is apparently a bug (or was a bug possibly fixed by a recent firmware update) where if you shut the machine down with tracks armed the next time you powered up it would shut back down. There is a work around that works for some where you boot into the firmware update mode and do something (I can't remember what) and it will boot properly again. This is obviously pretty easy to fix with a firmware update so shouldn't be an issue for long.

I don't mean to paint the Zoom as a "buggy" machine, all machines go through shakedown bumps as new failure modes nobody thought of pop up or a firmware change creates a new issue. As long as Zoom keeps fixing them the machines will get more and more reliable. And of all the issues I have read about all together they only affect a small number of users. Mostly I suspect because many of them are caused by very specific sequences and most people will never happen to do all the things in sequence that it takes to cause the bug. And Zoom has been fixing issues as they come up so odds are that they will fix it before you experience it, as long as you keep the firmware up to date.

Yes, I agree, for probably 99% of dvxuser browsers, a Zoom F4/F8 would be a better value choice. I think if a person buys a Sound Devices MixPre 3 or 6, that those are very nice machines too, but you are paying a significant premium for the "Sound Devices name".

;~)...

SD was the underdog discount film gear company when it started, it's quite funny to hear people talk about "paying for the name". Of the companies that are catering to the film market SD is the cheapest player.

Which is another thing Zoom needs to overcome a bit , for the professional market anyway, and that is commitment. They are primarily a consumer electronics producer so if you are not thinking of your gear as disposable then you want to know the company is going to stand behind it for some time. I know that is "so 20th century" but I still consider $600- $1,000 a significant hunk of change and if Zoom decided the margin was just not there in the film market and dropped the F series and stopped fixing firmware glitches etc. that would be an issue for me if I had kit centered around an F series. I mean not a huge issue since I keep stuff so long that a fair amount of it is not made anymore, but it is a worry. I have thousands sunk in plugins and software that got orphaned. One of the reasons I stopped using software samplers and went back to a OLD but stable e4 is that they kept getting orphaned and I would spend a lot of time transferring libraries while I still could and learning the next app.

 

[drapeama]

I have had a Tascam DR-40 for several years and it still runs like a champ. [...] I keep one for SFX recording, and for low/no-budget projects, but it isn't my primary device.

I have two DR-40 and one DR-05 recorder from Tascam. Ditched the Zoom H2 years ago and the H4n, well, I kept it for like a week then sold it online...
I'm using it mostly for short film and now, corporate shooting, but nothing on the professional level. Nothing for what I could justify the buy of a SoundDevices.

On the other hand, none of them have failed me a single time so far.

*Fun fact, I've used the three recorders recently on a LIVE show. DR-05 plugged on the console headphone's output and used the DR-40 for front and rear capture. Gave a good mix in the end.