Goodbye Zoom

[IronFilm]

From what I read, you can add the DR100 MKIII into that mid-line list of Iron Film's.

I know about that, but rule it out as it isn't seriously intended for location sound recording.

I'd rather have a Tascam DR70D for about the same price!

Yes the F4 takes redundant battery power, a 3d party external lithium-ion battery pack will automatically roll over to the internal AA's when it runs out of power. Since you can get really large external packs quite cheaply that is a good option.

Yup, I power mine with Sony BP-U60 batteries. Or even a little tiny BP-U30 is plenty!

Also, you can buy extra battery holders which means you can change the internal batteries in less than a
minute.

Have that too, but I've never used mine, as I just go external power.

Actually, I am surprised someone has not come up with an internal LI battery pack for these recorders.

Probably because everyone has their preferences for powering systems. The recorder is not your only thing in your bag needing power!!

However, I have discovered that the F4 eats batteries when it is not being used, plus the RTC is not super accurate, about 5 minutes a month, my 25 year old wrist watch keeps one minute a year.

This is why you should always jam TC at the start of the day, then leave your F4 running non-stop.

 

[Noiz2]

Really you people consider placing your reputation on AA batts?

My SD702 has a np battery and and volts in.

Meaning you can run from a large battery or the mains and the NP providing back up should the primary supply fail somehow.

A used 702 is I guess merely 125% the cost of Zoom Tascam plastic horrors

Not sure your point. All recorders that I have seen, including POS cheapie have a way to power from mains. But that is of zero import in the field. All batteries fail at some point, non-reusable batteries less than reusables. What you describe sounds like you are running from a cart, and that is fine but probably represents about 15% of the readers of this site.

As to reputations... So your in the jungle recording away from any AC for two weeks... I'm still going strong your system died about day two.

My point is Not that you are wrong so much as your set up works for you and you should Not assume everyone else is working the same and has the same needs as you.

A 702 is a fine box, though I do know some big name recordists who don't like their "sound", so it is not the end all choice. But it uses Sony consumer camcorder batteries. Those are fine as long as you can charge them and you bring enough spares so if one dies you have extras. AA's can be picked up anywhere in the world. You can of course also use a BDS and then the AA's are backup. You can also use NiMh AA's which are the same chemistry as the NP batteries (if you are using current versions) and are smaller and easier to pack and recharge.

The only really good use of a handheld is for light and quick SFX gathering. The 702 is not at all good for that purpose. For more structured SFX recording or production work I am mostly with you. AA's don't generally run as long as one would like for production. You can swap at lunch but still for production I would much rather have enough to last a day on one set of batteries so some sort of external power is best, or a SD with a hunkin battery.

But for a little perspective it was not that long ago that 1/4" tape was still considered the gold standard for production (till about 20 years ago) and on those you had about 1/2 hour of run time on a reel of tape and maybe a few hours on a set of 12 D cels. On a big budget set it would actually be easier to be running off of AA's than on most low budget and no budget shoots because you have a lot more down time for set ups etc. AND of course if you are running wireless you are using AA's or horrors 9V batteries so I don't think there are any reputations at stake.

Also to your 125% comment, if you point me to a 702 for under $200 I'll send you a case of your choice of beer.

For the record I like SD equipment, though I actually don't like using the recorders because I find them cramped and a bit menu intense, but I think they sound great. I do like using the mixers, which ironicaly tend to use AA's as the onboard power...

 

[puredrifting]

I try to be brand agnostic but I have to say, if you are a professional, the Sound Devices Mix-Pre 3 should be your floor. The new Mix-Pres are so far ahead of anything in their price range, they have effectively obsoleted everything around them. I have a Zoom H4N that has soldiered on since it's introduction, I can't even recall how long it's been out I have had it so long. But it doesn't sound that great, it tipped over while sitting on a table in Copenhagen at a museum and the front plastic screen cracked and it eats batteries at an alarming pace, I end up plugging it in most of the time, which kind of negates it's portability. I have had three Tascam DR-40s and loved them but all three died so I gave up on Tascam. Unless there is some feature they lack that you have to have, the Sound Devices Mix-Pre 3 and 6 are the new low cost industry standard for pros. For amateurs and hobbyists, have fun with the handheld Zooms and Tascams.

 

[ggrantly]

This thread has drifted from beating on cheapo Zoom recorders to something else. Batteries and battery systems are my pet peeve. I have so many different battery systems it is a major expense every year. Between dedicated batteries for my Panny cam, Canon DSLRs, Sony BPs for a bunch of other gear including a 744 and a fleet portable lights, and then have a fleet of Bescor bricks besides. At least for me, I just use alkaline AAs as needed. I buy a big rack (pile) of them at Costco and just change them out at the beginning of a day and then as needed. I usually change them out before they are exhausted and save them for non-critical uses like household flashlights. Whatever extra cost, and I'm not sure it really is extra, I pay buy not using rechargeables, is just one less thing I have to worry over. I have never had a problem doing this and have never had a bad AA coming out of the pile. Really, is this any less reliable than using rechargeables? In my audio bag, instead of adding an NP1 system, I use two larger Sony BP series run in series to power my bag and can get a day out of that. If I need larger and more stationary power for a cam or battery lights, I go to the Bescor bricks.

Another note about the DR-100 if I wasn't clear before; it has a removable Li-Ion battery AND a pocket for two AAs built in. You can tell the recorder which battery to use first. So redundant power is onboard and not external which is a great feature. And yes, the DR-100 isn't a bag recorder, but none of the little handhelds are. That doesn't make it useless, in fact, at times the small form factor has been an asset. On several occasions, I have mounted it on the base of a pole with a mic on the end for a bagless solution. And most every pro sound person has some kind of similar recorder for a backup. Although, the DR100 is a little larger than the really small units like a DR40.

Grant

 

[IronFilm]

Not sure your point. All recorders that I have seen, including POS cheapie have a way to power from mains. But that is of zero import in the field. All batteries fail at some point, non-reusable batteries less than reusables. What you describe sounds like you are running from a cart, and that is fine but probably represents about 15% of the readers of this site.

15%???? :-o

Nah, I'd say less than 0.1% of dvxuser visitors are mixing from a cart on a film set the majority of the time.

And even that is an extremely generous estimate. Would not shock me in the slightest if the true figure is 0.01%! Or even less.

 

[IronFilm]

Unless there is some feature they lack that you have to have, the Sound Devices Mix-Pre 3 and 6 are the new low cost industry standard for pros. For amateurs and hobbyists, have fun with the handheld Zooms and Tascams.

There is a whole world of Zooms and Tascams that are *NOT* handheld:

http://ironfilm.co.nz/which-sound-r...various-indie-priced-sound-recorders-in-2017/

Some of which are extremely affordable (cheaper than a Zoom H5/H6) and others which are worthy competitors to the Sound Devices MixPre3/6 (and even arguably better than the MixPre3/6).

 

[morgan_moore]

Noize.
I said external batts or the mains with an omboard backup np batt.

I've used my SD in the mains in various situations - basically plugged into a desk at a wedding or conference.

In the field l can use bp or vlock via dtap - and if I can't charge them because in the jungle I can't charge my camera either.

--
Overall and I'm not a soundie I've found zoom and tascam just not like my 702.

My 702 seems designed to help me do my job. Be that preroll big buttons nice meters it just allows me to concentrate on my content rathe than technical worries.

 

[IronFilm]

Overall and I'm not a soundie I've found zoom and tascam just not like my 702.

Very likely you've only had experiences with a Zoom H4n or other such handheld recorders, which is badly influencing how you view Zoom and Tascam's other products

I can assure you the likes of a Tascam DR680 mk2 / Tascam HS-P82 or Zoom F4 / Zoom F8 is nothing at all like those other ones.

It would be like looking at the Sound Devices MP-1 (one of their earliest products, when Sound Devices was viewed as this strange unknown cheaper outsider) and using that to cast your judgement on a Sound Devices 688!!

 

[ggrantly]

Very likely you've only had experiences with a Zoom H4n or other such handheld recorders, which is badly influencing how you view Zoom and Tascam's other products

I can assure you the likes of a Tascam DR680 mk2 / Tascam HS-P82 or Zoom F4 / Zoom F8 is nothing at all like those other ones.

It would be like looking at the Sound Devices MP-1 (one of their earliest products, when Sound Devices was viewed as this strange unknown cheaper outsider) and using that to cast your judgement on a Sound Devices 688!!

I have owned a succession of Tascam recorders including the 680, and for their price point, been very happy with them. I then purchased a (used) 744t. There is simply no comparison whatsoever between the Tascams and my SD products. And their price reflects that extra quality. Even as the audio quality has narrowed, build quality and field function are not even close. I champion Tascam products for value, but there is a light year of difference in the overall product.

Grant

 

[morgan_moore]

Yep I've been around h4n and dr100 which I gave away.

I'm not saying they TaZoom are not good value - but my rationale was that a decent recorder was about the cost of a 70-200 2.8 and equally important to my business.

I would not shoot a still photo job on a "great value" compact camera either.

 

[Noiz2]

Noize.
I said external batts or the mains with an omboard backup np batt.

I've used my SD in the mains in various situations - basically plugged into a desk at a wedding or conference.

In the field l can use bp or vlock via dtap - and if I can't charge them because in the jungle I can't charge my camera either.

--
Overall and I'm not a soundie I've found zoom and tascam just not like my 702.

My 702 seems designed to help me do my job. Be that preroll big buttons nice meters it just allows me to concentrate on my content rathe than technical worries.

I thought you were talking about the large NP batteries not the small NP-f Sony batteries. It is relatively common to use the larger ones with a cup and a BDS.

I am not a "soundie" either I'm a recordist/ designer/ editor, are you saying you are an "imagie"? I'm not changing cameras because I'm recording to a recorder.

The point is not that you should ditch what you do and change but that you should realize that what you do is not what everybody else does.

It would be stupid for you to try and rig everything to run off of AA batteries, and it would be stupid of me to be set up where I couldn't run everything off of AA batteries.

Sound devices stuff is built like a tank and is made to take what field equipment has to take. Great stuff.

Now the "big buttons" and "pre roll" tell me you have not use a lot of non handheld field recorders. Even my DR-40 has preroll and the SD recorders have some of the smallest buttons in one of the more cramped layouts around. The layout and size is my only real complaint with SD recorders. Though I will admit my fat fingers are not SD's fault...


BTW the "jungle" was not a weird silly never going to happen scenario. I personally have been two weeks in the backwoods with no generator etc. A friend spent four weeks in the jungles in Puerto Rico and another a couple of weeks in the Amazon. In all cases everything needed to be powered by what you carried with you.

 

[graywolf]

I would not shoot a still photo job on a "great value" compact camera either.

A local pro was hired by the National Park Service to shoot a section of the Blue Ridge Parkway for a brochure, he used a compact camera, and one cheaper than I would own at that. People buy into advertising too heavily. A lot of my own digital work was done with an Olympus C5050Z (I still use it a lot for my personal photography), I do also have a DSLR for when I need more versitility. BTW, the C5050Z was recommended to me by a nationally fameous news photographer who was using one himself.

Know nothing employers want you to have something they have heard of, but that is usually like calling a refrigerator a "Frigidaire". They actually don't know the difference between a Hasselblad and an old folding camera.

 

[ggrantly]

I always show with pro level gear because that is what I prefer to use. Having said that, unless specifically asked, I never discuss equipment with a client. I sell myself and the finished product. Hopefully, all they care about is the finished product and how I achieve that is up to me. Part of that process is to establish trust between myself and the client; if they believe in me, then nothing much else matters about what gear I use.

If you go to an established and professionally run auto repair shop, do you care if they use Snap-On or Mac tools, or are you concerned about the repair? If you go into the shop and it looks unkept and otherwise unprofessional, then it doesn't much matter what tools they use....

 

[morgan_moore]

The forum is not really a place to explain full details of ones choices.

I've used compact cameras and zoom recorders on professional gigs.

But usually as an added bonus extra angle or as part of some broader blanket bombing plan.

For example a zoom planted on te head table at a wedding in case there was a problem with the lav on the groom. Or whatever primary plan we had.


-
A jungle job could use disposable AA batts you can buy in any tin shack shop from Soweto to kiruna (I've worked both) - good plan.

But these are exceptions to the daily grind of capturing sound and images for clients.

Simply I try and pick the best tool for the job kind of irrelevant to its cost.

Sometimes a zoom, a GoPro or an nex5 is the best tool for the job.

I caution the op not getting the tools he considers the best for his job in an effort to save a few bucks.

 

[ggrantly]

Morgan More said, "The forum is not really a place to explain full details of ones choices."

What? Isn't that how we learn and help ourselves by learning the how and why of other people?

Maybe I misunderstood your intent?

Grant

 

[morgan_moore]

What I meant is that each choice can be exremely detailed and I certainly can't fully verbalise that.

Touching kit by assisting or whatever brings one a lot. The internet is ultimately non tactile and certainly no replacement for being a trainee for months or years

 

[Creative C]

Love my Zoom H6

 

[Noiz2]

-
A jungle job could use disposable AA batts you can buy in any tin shack shop from Soweto to kiruna (I've worked both) - good plan.

But these are exceptions to the daily grind of capturing sound and images for clients....

I caution the op not getting the tools he considers the best for his job in an effort to save a few bucks.

While the jungle is an exception, for a sound recordist doing SFX work the jungle is not so different from a lot of other situations. Usually you can charge stuff but it is not unusual at all to need to have a couple of days power.

I'm with you that price is one of the lower considerations. Not that I have unlimited funds but spending anything on something that doesn't do what you need is too much. A lot of times with SFX recording the best equipment doesn't exist so a lot of peoples systems are assembled. Back in DAT days the HHB was kind of the king but it had issues if you were in the middle of nowhere for a long time. One of the fairly common pieced together systems then was a Sony DAT Walkman (totally consumer, but had a digital in) paired with a good preamp and often with a A/D converter, so the Sony was just a "bit bucket". These were not particularly "robust" systems but they could be used off the grid for as long as you could carry batteries for. Flash recorders really changed the formula. You could with not a lot of effort make a 702 backwood friendly. Use the CF card version and make a AA battery pack, and or carry a stack of NP batteries (and the AA pack as a backup). These days you could also set up a solar recharging station with out a huge expense.

And the SD devices will A) last forever B) retain value for a long time. A 702 is about 3X the price of a F4. In terms of features the F4 wins, tracks, TC, etc. But you could probably drive a car over the SD box and have it survive and that is not going to happen with the F4. The F4 will probably not be worth +50% of what you paid for it in ten years and the SD probably will.

Which is the better fit has a huge amount to do with exactly what and how you will use them and a lot less to do with the boxes them selves.

I mostly record SFX and that can be brutal on gear but I have had very little in the way of damage to equipment. Actually I have had a lot more personal damage than my equipment has suffered...

So for me the balance would lean to the F4. The 702 is a "better" box but the F4 has more of what I know I will use and the weaknesses are ones I know have not been a problem for me with what I do.

BUT that formulas if very personal, and has many years of experience behind it. If I was new I would probably lean to the 702 because I probably can't break it and I wouldn't know the demands of what I would be doing yet. I suspect that if I were doing a lot of run and gun or doc work I would lean to the 702 because of durability and ease of service. The F4 in that case I would be leery of the lack of track record. It could be a rock, but it hasn't been out long enough for anyone to know.

 

[klk]

I had an SD 552 for years. It was great- but I work as a dp not a sound mixer, so I only used it on my own small productions or when I field produce and put together a 2-3 man crew and supply the gear.

I also have a Tascam DR70. In side by side testing (dialogue- same 416/COS-11D mics) the SD 552 sounded better to me. Lower noise floor, and "livelier." But I was surprised how well the DR70 sounded. Sounds much better than say, plugging the 416 directly into a C300M2. Functionally the 552 was sooo much nicer in the field, but as a dp/camera op I tended to set it and forget it if I had to record sound. The 552 was also a lot bigger/heavier to haul around. Now as a cameraman I LAUGH at all the folks who complain about the weight of professional cameras- but as a non sound pro the size/weight of the 552 was inconvenient at times.

I sold the 552 because 1) if the client doesn't want to hire a qualified sound recordist- they likely don't care about the difference between the 552 and DR70. Most things end up on the web after-all. 2) I'm endlessly buying camera gear and put the 552 into the sell pile.

Though to be honest I've been eying the SD 633. But now that the Premix 6 is out- when the DR70 craps out there are so many options...

On batteries- I do use a large power bank with the DR70 when the recorder is in bag- and keep the AA batteries in the unit as backup. With quality cables the USB has never jarred loose. Works well enough as I use it perhaps 10-15 times a year. With today's software lack of TC hasn't been an issue for me. We're talking super short interviews when I choose not to hire a qualified sound professional. I sync in Premiere, dump the on-camera scratch track, and output the file for client.

For me- if the project needs Sound Devices quality recordings, then I NEED to bring on a qualified sound professional.

 

[IronFilm]

I have owned a succession of Tascam recorders including the 680, and for their price point, been very happy with them. I then purchased a (used) 744t. There is simply no comparison whatsoever between the Tascams and my SD products. And their price reflects that extra quality. Even as the audio quality has narrowed, build quality and field function are not even close. I champion Tascam products for value, but there is a light year of difference in the overall product.

Grant

I too have a DR680 (which I used with a Sound Devices 552 as the front end), and believe me the Zoom F4/F8 is a *MASSIVE* leap forward from the DR680! That gap has been narrowed way more than you think.