F3: Go from F3 and EX3 to FS700?

A

Alpha Beta Omega

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I currently have one F3 and one EX3. Both generate work. EX3 on low budget shoots and F3 for commercial work. I don't want to put more money than what the F3 cost me and it's less than ideal to have two cameras. I could buy a F5 but that camera is out of my budget. I can't charge enough to my clients to cover that camera.

So I'm thinking, if I sell my F3 and EX3 and put money into the FS700R and Convergent Design 7Q recorder this will work in two ways. For lower budget stuff use the FS700R bare bones. For commercials use the 7Q to get higher quality out of the FS700R.

Question is if I will be satisfied with image quality compared to the F3? There's no10-bit on the FS700 and I don't know if s-log2 looks as good on the FS700 as s-log on the F3. I don't know if noise will be higher on the FS700 also.

I do know the upside to the FS700; high FPS, 4K, smaller camera, use of metabone speedbooster all adds up to more functions.

If I go the FS700 route I probably end up getting as much for my two cameras as I have to pay for the FS700/7Q combo. More or less. But I don't want to dumb iq down.
 
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I have gone from f3 to f700 ....the picture is different but i have learned to love the f700 ...hell of a camera ..i have made alot of money off of the slo-mo feature
 
I would suggest that the Slog doesn't 'work' with an 8bit codec and you should wait until the 7q is widely available and results published, at that point you can make a choice with your eyes open?

Simply IMO the file of the 700 is not as good as the F3 or EX3, add a recorder and that might change.

S
 
I don't have faith in AVCHD bringing the best out of any camera. But on a budget shoot it'll do just fine. I will use an external recorder for the more demanding jobs and with the 7Q you can go all the way to 4k.

I like the concept of having one camera that can be scaled, so to speak, to fit all kind of budgets.

The thing is I wont do any work from Jan to May next year and I don't need any camera in that time period. I can sell my two cameras and steer towards something else.
 
Depending on whether you still get much work for the EX3, I'd suggest selling that and putting the funds towards the Odyssey7 (not the 7Q). That way you'll get 1080p 10-bit 60fps out of the F3, with the added benefit of the significantly superior ergonomics (and ruggedness) of an ET Body-armoured F3 over the FS700.

Given how reasonably priced the Odyssey 7 is, I think that path offers a lot of capability without the headaches of a 'prosumer' bodied camera.

That said, if you need 240fps... well there's an obvious choice to make.
 
I have more use of a budget camera than 60p from the F3. Some clients can't pay the cost of the F3 and the equipment around it. A camera like the FS700R is inexpensive to run. I could opt for a C100 but I don't like the iq in general on the C100/C300 and they are limited compared to the FS700. It might pop up something interesting until May also and seriously I could always rent a camera before getting hold of something to own.

I'd wish for another NEX FS-style camera with XAVC codec in 2014.
 
Grug said:
Depending on whether you still get much work for the EX3, I'd suggest selling that and putting the funds towards the Odyssey7 (not the 7Q). That way you'll get 1080p 10-bit 60fps out of the F3.
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Whait, you don't need the Q version to shoot 60p from the 7Q?
 
The FS700 folks are quite upset with a highlight and edge contrast issue on the FS700 so if it were me I'd go to F5 if anything or just stick with F3.
 
KINOKS said:
Whait, you don't need the Q version to shoot 60p from the 7Q?
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Not for compressed recording, the regular 7 offers 60fps recording to DNxHD (and possibly ProRes down the line), you need the 7Q if you want raw or ucompressed video.

Osslund said:
I have more use of a budget camera than 60p from the F3. Some clients can't pay the cost of the F3 and the equipment around it. A camera like the FS700R is inexpensive to run. I could opt for a C100 but I don't like the iq in general on the C100/C300 and they are limited compared to the FS700. It might pop up something interesting until May also and seriously I could always rent a camera before getting hold of something to own.

I'd wish for another NEX FS-style camera with XAVC codec in 2014.
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Sounds like the FS700 is a good fit for you then. Though I agree, a version with XAVC 10-bit internally would be wonderful. I'd honestly be perfectlt happy with an F3 in an F5 body if it had XAVC 10-bit recording up to 60fps. That would cover almost all my needs and provide a much nicer camera design to work with.
 
I see the cameras as two totally different beasts. I wouldn't give up my EX3/nanoFlash combo at the moment. It's saved my bacon in a ton of situations. Sometimes... many times, you need an ENGesque camera when doing corp, event or doco shooting. You have zero setup time, you HAVE to nail the shot(s), the client could care less about filmic aesthetic and so on. I am waiting for a decent EX3 replacement but I am not moving until I see the camera of my choice in the wilds and operating for a few months before I transition to a new and proper ENG style camera.

If it is slomo that you really want, I would say the offerrings are not right at the moment and it is best to hold out, unless you want to take a serious financial hit. I think your capitulation infers you are concerned about this as well. Some tough questions... Are you loosing gigs due to your setup? Will getting a new camera combo increase business? Think about return on investment on your present cameras and the kind of and the breadth of work you can do with them. Are you willing to trade the flexibility you have with two completely different tools for the sake of slomo and simplicity?

This may seem outrageous but you may wish to hold off until he ARRI AMIRA is out. The price is higher than most of our comfort zones but it is a year away until it is both released and sufficiently field tested by operators. But even the AMIRA isn't true ENG in terms of smaller chip with broad depth of field capabilities but it is probably closer to your ideal camera and should have good return on investment, as ARRI cameras hold their value more than most other brands of camera and if any camera will get you hired it will be an ARRI.
 
I really love to shoot with both cameras. I could do nothing and stay with these another year or so. But I also see how easy it would be to justify adding an external recorder when the client wants is an easy sell.

I do run into clients wanting the best camera but dont want to pay for more than the cheapest.
 
If you really want a cheap external recorder option go for the hyperdeck shuttle 2, add a decent SSD drive and that's it. The decks go for $300, drives are dropping in price everyday. It will give you 10-bit 422 in DNxHD, ProRes, and uncompressed. It won't do 60p, but you can do 60p on the F3 in 720p and there is very minor difference to 1080p.

Just a thought.
 
Dennis's solution is a good one in my mind but with a few cautionary notes. It is comparitively heavy at 2.5lbs/1.13kg with mounting gear and battery plate. This could be a good or a bad thing. Second and of the most concern are the mini DIN connectors. They are fragile being attached directly to the IC board inside the unit and have no support from the external housing. Breaking them off is easy and it would render the unit useless... useless.

The Samurai Blade at $1300, in my eyes, seems to be the best in terms of trade off between features, build quality and price. Haven't completely checked out the field use results on the Blade, so I would check first. The Convergent-Design Odyssey 7Q certainly looks superb but it will set you back 4 grand and hasn't been field tested. Of course there is the used market for other 10 bit recorders that have been around for a couple of years. People will be shedding their KiPro Minis and such. Might be worth checking out.
 
I have both an F3 and an FS700. Since getting the FS700 last year I find that I have been using it more than the F3. Especially when I need to work fast or need a camera that is lighter and more compact. I think the Convergent Design 7Q recorder will be a great addition to the system.

See if you can rent one in your area for a few days, perhaps your dealer has a demo unit you can try. Although I like bother cameras if the FS 700 had been out first I would not have bought the F3

cheers

Morton
 
Morton, what do you say about all the pixel peeping going on in the FS700 thread - are the edge black line artifacts as bad as some have shown frame grabs of? And also any comment on the yellow highlight aliasing/artificating which were also posted?
 
starcentral said:
Morton, what do you say about all the pixel peeping going on in the FS700 thread - are the edge black line artifacts as bad as some have shown frame grabs of? And also any comment on the yellow highlight aliasing/artificating which were also posted?
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This is what somewhat just posted about the black edges, and I can personally attest that it can be pretty bad, especially in 240fps.

"in video mode, I can recreate it in all of its jaggy, false color glory. throwing it into photo mode, I can still see it present in the viewfinder (and yes I can even blow it up with focus magnification and highlight how wrong it is.) but then when I take a look at the still, it is not present at all. not at all. no aliasing. no false color. no dancing black edge detail. clean. it is definitely how the 4K read is being scaled."

So it's a 4K scaling issue. The 7Q will probably most likely fix it.

The FS700 will probably take a big step up with the 7Q recorder. According Art Adam's charts, there are 14 total stops of DR with FS700 S-Log 2 and he states in the article there are about 13 useable stops with S-Log 2, which really needs the 7Q and it's 10bits. So the DR is pretty close to the F3 and you obviously get more frame rate options, more resolution in a smaller body.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/fs700-the-4k-story-from-my-perspective.html
 
I already have a Hyperdeck shuttle 2 and an Atomos Samurai Blade.

The camera thing has more to do with getting the job. If I only had my F3, which I charge more for than the EX3, I couldn't do certain jobs due to the higher cost of that camera with lenses and such. There's where the EX3 kicks in. It's my budget alternative and I get the job. I could charge less for the F3 and shoot everything with it but then again why would a client pay more for the F3 once I've lowered my rental fee one time? In that scenario I would be better off having the least expensive camera and always charge less for my camera equipment. That's the bottle neck.

I have a spread sheet with all my equipment all in all about $78000 worth. I run a business model to get the investment back in 1 to 3 years depending on what item it is. It makes no sense lowering prices because that would only result in a loss and I'd be better off having just my 5Dmk3 or similar priced camera to bring to a shoot. That's why I can't fit a F5 or higher priced camera in my budget. I wont get that money in return and just end up with a loss.
 
Im going through the same sort of process of camera choice right now.

In summary an FS700 is £8600, the F5 is £11280 (but some money can be saved on XQDcards)

I guess they kind of head to head spec wise (but the capabilities of the F5 are known - the 7q is unknown)

(and Mitch Gross will shoot me but the thing might drop frames freeze or all the other things 'indy' products can do)

The big thing is the 'duration of life' - the F5 has a clear route to 4k awesome raw which should make it compete for many years - the 700 does not.

You may note that an F3 is also on my book as I think that with a recorder presents a viable option - especially if you own an F3

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlBBFhhXu9RedGNGXzRRQjFSTUJqMG1pM1N3V0JwSEE&usp=sharing

My choice? - currently im lost - If I owned an F3 Id probably sit out another season of camera launches.

S
 
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