giving notes...making enemies

S

sean90291

Veteran
So my friend shows me the cut of her latest doc. It's an incoherent mess that adds up to 90 minutes of screen time. And she asks me for my notes. This is where everyone has a decision to make: tell them what you like and don't like, but be honest about what you think it needs to be a movie you'd pay to watch...or lie and tell them what they really want to hear, which is that it's wonderful and just needs a few tweaks. Because telling the truth doesn't always make you friends. People hold it against you. Your notes are seen as a personal attack--even though I would have loved nothing more than to tell her that her doc was amazing and will sell for a million bucks. I would love to tell her that, because hey, of course I want my friends to be happy and if a good friend becomes a success that can't hurt my own career either.

In this case the movie just doesn't know what it is. I ask "what is this film about" and she tells me "it's a journey." That's not really saying anything, I say. Every story is a journey. A journey can be an aimless meaningless boring one too. I persist: "What is this film ABOUT? What film have you seen, documentary or otherwise, that tells a similar story?" She tells me this film is "different"...it's "never been done before." And right then I realize she's not really a filmmaker yet. Anyone who thinks their story is something that has never been told before hasn't told a story worth telling--after 10,000 years of storytelling I think every story has been told in one form or another. There are fresh takes on the same stories--boy meets girl (boy meets boy)--overcoming the obstacles (you realize you're the obstacle a la Angel Heart)--can good triumph over evil (maybe the question is irrelevant a la Match Point)--whatever. But here the truth is she doesn't know what her film is about. And me demanding a clear answer is making her mad. Sometimes it's not worth it--why make people hate you just for being honest (even when you're diplomatically and sensitively honest). If someone isn't a good friend and you're not being paid good money, DON'T be honest. Lie. Tell them it's the best film you've ever seen. It's a "spiritual journey." They'll like to hear that and probably do nice things for you later.
 
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Be honest without being cruel. Keep emotion out of your notes, but be very honest, what works, what doesn't work, and be clear. If she can't take the notes, well...wrong career.

Your other choice is to politely decline giving notes, and be honest why.
 
(1) I never provide notes to anyone who (a) isn't a friend, or (b) isn't potentially useful, professionally, or (3) isn't compensating me for my time, doing it...

...of course, it's a losing proposition, trying to sort out who will or will not someday be useful to you, professionally...

(2) Be honest and direct, or don't bother. I'm presently working with a producer whose latest feature (rough cut) generated eight pages of notes; everything from anachronisms in his period piece, through dialog, to lighting/composition problems. You're offering notes with the understanding that you are making an effort to help out and, frankly, if someone doesn't appreciate your well-intentioned effort, then f*ck 'em. They always reserve the right to ignore you.

The first person to ask 'what is this film about,' should have been your friend, and until she could answer the question herself, she probably should not have started to make it.

Sounds like you did your part and tried to help out. Some people just can't appreciate anything that they don't want to hear.
 
Complete agree, if you can't be honest then don't bother. If nothing else you are putting your seal of approval on a piece of crap. You say it's good and she takes to someone else and says, "Sean said it was good" Now your opinion and reputation are attached to junk.

Be diplomatic, I liked this but this needs work, etc. Anyone who thinks they nailed it the first time out is delusional and will disappear from this business shortly.

Good luck
 
Yeah. You gotta ask for advice from someone you believe in, respect and admire. If you get advice from someone who doesnt fit this criteria, they might give you BAD BAD BAD advice. But, if you ask someone whom you believe has talent, you are more inclined to listen to what they have to say. But, if you are gonna ask, you had better be able to listen. If you are truly an "artist", you had better be willing to take criticism, and be willing to respect the input you've asked for.

But, take any advice you've been given with a grain of salt. In the end, we are dealing with ART. So, don't be so eager to chuck your contributions to someone who just might not get it....

If your friend can't get with this...houston...we might have a problem...
 
I've just about reached the point at which I head for the exit the moment I hear someone describe themselves as an 'artist.'

I'm certainly not an artist. I'm a craftsman.

Generically speaking, sure, some people are artists. But people who describe themselves as such...seems they usually aren't.
 
Sad Max said:
I've just about reached the point at which I head for the exit the moment I hear someone describe themselves as an 'artist.'

I'm certainly not an artist. I'm a craftsman.

Generically speaking, sure, some people are artists. But people who describe themselves as such...seems they usually aren't.
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Very good point...
 
Sad Max said:
I've just about reached the point at which I head for the exit the moment I hear someone describe themselves as an 'artist.'

I'm certainly not an artist. I'm a craftsman.

Generically speaking, sure, some people are artists. But people who describe themselves as such...seems they usually aren't.
Click to expand...

Really, really good point. :)
 
I agree with most everyone else's statements. As someone who has recently asked people to give notes on a project, I am grateful for their criticisms because they are pointing things out to me I would not have seen myself. It sounds like your friend may be looking more for validation that the project is "as good as she thinks it is", and not necessarily notes/suggestions on what it needs to make it work.
 
Screenwriters always ask for feedback and then when they hear the negative they get mad, state the opinion is idiotic, then storm away. Sort of funny that way. Some screenwriters however have "learned" how to receive feedback. For any new artist it's a process, even in hearing that the story is pointless.

So I say, tell the truth so that next time, they'll be more prepared to hear the truth from another.
 
Personally, I sort of resent the off the cuff comments, like "It's great!", or "Yeah, I really like it". There is nothing of use in those comments. I would rather hear "That character has some really good dialogue, but the character themself is a little two flat", or that my action is a little weak, or even that is too cliche. And to hear that it sucks, tells me nothing useful either. I want to know what exactly works, and what does not, and why you feel that way.
 
Sad Max said:
I've just about reached the point at which I head for the exit the moment I hear someone describe themselves as an 'artist.'

I'm certainly not an artist. I'm a craftsman.

Generically speaking, sure, some people are artists. But people who describe themselves as such...seems they usually aren't.
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what does the way someone describes themself have to do with the quality of their work? i used to be hung up on this craftsman/artist distinction for some reason too. i would go around insistinging i was a just a film craftsman -- that what i was doing was too mechanical to be considered art. and honestly, it came from a place of insecurity about what i was doing. now, many, many years later, still endeavoring to understand and communicate within the cinematic artform, the label 'artist' no longer frightens me. and it has nothing to do with whether i'm making good art or bad art (whatever that means) because that remains in the very subjective internal world of every individual that sees my films.

as far as giving notes, i always, always request that they tell me exactly what specific aspect of the film (or screenplay) they want me to be looking for -- structure, character development, rhythm, clarity, etc. this keeps the problem of having to "review" the entire film at bay.
 
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A note on notes...

A note on notes...

A person who gives notes and expects all of their ideas for change/improvement to be heeded is no more disciplined than the original artist who refuses to heed good advice.

So you should always be honest, but they can take it or leave it.

Just because they don't heed your advice doesn't mean they're snotty, and if you think it does, it might mean you're snotty.

I am not directing this at the OP, but as someone who has received tons of advice on my screenplays, I must say that in my opinionm, you will always get some advice that is wrong or doesn't work for you or for the project. But it doesn't make me mad to hear any advice, and it shouldn't make my friends/co-workers mad if I don't incorporate their ideas, either.

After all advice is an opinion, and others can agree or disagree.

If they don't even hear your opinion or it makes them mad, then they are missing out.

The other thing is who cares what you label yourself? Artist or craftsman? They're just labels. The one person said they were a craftsman, not an artist, as if that piece of wisdom ended the discussion, case closed. And then others responded to it and seemed to say, "Oh my God! How true! You found the answer to life!"

You can approach things from a craftsman point of view or an artist's angle, or maybe you're just a gardener that bought a camera and worked hard to make a coherent film that actually works--doesn't matter who you are or what you call yourself. What matters is the results.
 
In the environment where I work, 'craftsman' has a specific connotation: someone who practices one of the technical or creative 'crafts,' in which there are certain hard yardsticks by which your proficiency can be measured - either a set-construction document is accurate, or is isn't/either a subject is in focus, or it isn't/either a scene is lit to expose its subject, or it isn't/either the scenic job on a set is well-executed, or it isn't/either an edit-on-action is continuous, or it isn't/either a wall falls over and squishes the second assistant camera guy, or it doesn't.

In the same environment, 'artist' is a fuzzier term. Sometimes it means someone whose practice of their craft impresses people as transcending mere technical proficiency, and becomes something intrinsically expressive. Sometimes it means someone capable of unifying the products of many individual crafts into a greater whole. Sometimes (and most frequently when the person we're talking about uses the word to describe themselves...which is what's actually and specifically described in my post) it means someone whose performance won't look too good when evaluated by any form of strict technical or craft criteria, so they pass themselves off as 'artists' because, hey, an artist is good if he sez he's good, right, and if art is all squishy and subjective, with no standards, well, how can anyone contradict him?

Plenty of people look at my work, and say that I'm an 'artist.' Okay, fine, maybe they're right, but I take pride in proficiency at my various crafts. And I'm proud to call myself a master craftsman, because I worked at it, and I am, but 'artist' is a vague enough label, that I'll just let other people make their own conclusion whether it's the label for me, or not.

If your mileage varies, that's fine with me.

That's all.
 
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Well, okay, we usually rig walls to fall over and squish the second-second a.d., but I stand by the rest of it.
 
Did you see the ad where Martin Scorcese walks into a photo-mart to pick up his little nephew's birthday pictures...?

Capt Quirk said:
Personally, I sort of resent the off the cuff comments, like "It's great!", or "Yeah, I really like it". There is nothing of use in those comments. I would rather hear "That character has some really good dialogue, but the character themself is a little two flat", or that my action is a little weak, or even that is too cliche. And to hear that it sucks, tells me nothing useful either. I want to know what exactly works, and what does not, and why you feel that way.
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Tell her exactly what you think about the movie and don't sugar coat it. I can't stand when people bullsh*t and give the old "looks great". Theres too much a$$ kissing already with that same mind set of you never know who is going to be useful to you. Give her what she needs to hear to help her. Yeah she might get pissed but after hearing similar comments from people not afraid to speak their mind she will come back and probably say you were right. Every artist will get mad when you say something negative but if shes trying to please an audience then she will get over it when she sees the light.

PS. I'm saying you are an a$$ kisser Sad Max, just saying the same mindset that you mentioned goes with it with some people.
 
You're saying, or you *aren't* saying...?

:-)

It's about honesty, *never* about ass-kissing.

I don't work for people who need their asses kissed. They can't afford to pay enough.
 
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