Gimbal project 2024!

Cp

For sure i hate joysticks amd see operating with little finesse with them.

My 'movi' electronic control is attached to a satchler head for the second operator and I think offers intuitive feel.. like a satchler fluid head!

But if kids dont care or frame loose enough then they are happy with them and trad sc operators just tilt the rig to pull a tilt.
 
The poor person's trinity project is on ice at the moment. I haven't abandoned it, but I've prioritised figuring out a more day-in day-out set up. Plus I think the trinity project might be best served with the absolute smallest camera possible.

If you haven't followed the thread, I own the tilta advanced ring grip, which I actually think is OK for handheld gimbal work. This is under the assumption that the entire rig is light enough to hold in the hands. I still think ring grip is doable after adding ready/easy rigs, but as mentioned, as overall systems I'm not as much of a fan.

The biggest issue with the ring grip is moving between handheld and tripod mounted, specifically for dana dolly and jib use. Although awkward, the grip with its feet deployed will fit on the dana dolly platform, but it obviously doesn't belong. A jib is almost a non starter, you'd have to really want to use the combination in this way and it'd be underslung with creative rigging solutions to "mount" everything.

The other issue is the footprint, the depth is fantastic, but it's at the expense of extreme width and height.

So, I've been working on creating a camera agnostic base station that can easily move from handheld to a tripod head, while also redistributing some dimensions of the ring. As I worked through the build, after overcoming one challenge another presented itself immediately. This is still incomplete and more testing needs to be done, but it's ready to shoot and I'll keep shaving off weight where possible.

It's almost as if I've made a version of a DJI 4D (not to be confused with gimal in use, which is the DJI ronin 4s pro).
Criteria:

- mounts to dovetail baseplate
Original DJI grip with its single thread was instantly out of the question. The tilta powerbase has two threads like a camera.

- ability to provide wireless image via tx
- nothing mounted to camera
I'm no expert and I know people have balanced ridiculous rigs on gimbals, but I think almost any avoidable rebalancing delays on set or in the corporate world are such a waste of time.

- external monitor, essential due to previous point. Also important to provide strain relief for the beloved mini tx, not that I would, but if for example a cable ran directly from camera to tx
I bought literally the cheapest 5 inch monitor from B&H. It feels like each power on could be its last, but this is a stopgap monitor for now. Funnily enough, the HDMI exits from the rear of the monitor, a huge design win. Also, the tilt arm, while also on borrowed time, reminded me how much I prefer a monitor tilting in place (rotating) rather than needing its height in real estate fore/aft to move through a full range of motion. There's no pan/swivel either but this is OK for now and possibly future.

- gold mount battery
I only have 150wh batteries. These are too heavy and I'm currently leaning towards core 50wh batteries for as much weight saving as possible.

- tilta ring right hand grip used as my right hand grip
This one element changed the design quite a bit. I originally had two of the rubber grips (left hand grip pictured below) on either side. This let me use a single cheese plate rather than 3. Baseplate rods would mount the battery and monitor, so the overall shape would have been same height, narrower, but deeper. But since the rubber handles are dumb handles, I wanted the ability to use the right hand grip the same way I would on the ring, which is massively helpful. It provides joystick control (likely not mid shot as discussed but adjustments before rolling), reset to first position, roll adjustments and TBA record start/stop. I did a few shoots with the dumb handles and it was too much of a pain changing the gimabl setting while holding whole rig with a single hand. Not taking hands off the rig for the win. The right grip mounts vertically via NATO rail with an adapter, so I added a sideways cheese plate to mount the nato rail. I could have continued to use rods for the remaining accessories but increasing distance from the body starts depleting the human battery pretty quickly. Instead, I matched the cheese plate for the left side. Either way, you can see below it's shaved off almost 9 inches from the width of the tilta ring grip.

- more ergonomic operating
The grips are more neutral than a more externally rotated position when holding the ring grip. IDK science behind this but it feels better.

- easier to transport
The ring itself was good for the front seat but with cables etc. attached, it wasn't great.

Photos below:

tempImagesgDZyQ.jpgtempImageMBWaFN.jpg


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tempImageASJh1B.jpg
 
Latest improvements with handles in line with gimbal/camera, which feels much lighter than the rig from the previous post. I didn’t add a transmitter but this set up hasn't felt heavy yet. The term "all day" isn't necessarily helpful, but I didn't have any on a full day of intermittent gimbal shooting.

R5 Mark II with 15-35 f/2.8 RF lens. Core 50Wh battery still had all four bars at the end of the day. Core need to make a 10Wh gold mount battery as thick as a coaster. Anyway, no charging DJI hand grip batteries like a child!

You'll notice the newly positioned right hand grip. To place it more in line with the gimbal, I spaced/lowered with the silver pieces (just 3/8 to 1/4 20 adapters) and offset with a mini cheese plate, which allowed the hand grip to be vertically nato rail mounted. Compared with the wooden camera rubber hand grip on the right, attached via NATO rail, the right grip feels prosumer. There's an element of flex but it seems fine after holding the entire rig with the grip while walking between shots.

IMG_7981.jpg IMG_7983.jpg

IMG_7982.jpg
 
markfpv said:
Cool Rob! Appreciate the update. Always fun to see what others are doing.
Click to expand...
Thanks Mark!

Next steps:
- Confirm whether the tilta control will allow start/stop via bluetooth the same way the DJI control does. Pressing record on camera isn't a huge deal but it'd be great to gain those few seconds back in the shot where it's resettling after the button press. Plus it'd be even less time with a single hand holding everything so reduce fatigue even more.
- Keep adding other accessories to see how much weight I can take. First test will be to add a tx underneath (the dji wireless mount underneath the camera is really good) and counterweight above camera in shoe mount.
- Storage - I have a pretty small bag with every broken down for travel, but I'd like to get a local case with everything already assembled. Doing "zero rigging" is so satisfying where you can just pull the rig out and shoot. Current frontrunner is this tenba case https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/103974-REG/Tenba_634_402_Car_Case_CC17.html. Many hard cases have similar dimensions but it's quite unusual to find these dimensions while also made for this vertical orientation. I'm sure I could lay the rig on its side but would rather try this top loading case first. The rig can go on a dovetail plate, so I'll also add a dovetail plate to the rock n roller cart, but would still like to have an assembled rig case for when rock n roller space isn't at capacity.

I think that's it for now!
 
Wheels for the RS series of gimbals:


I think you'd be nuts to jump on v1, it's sort of like any tilta/dji/smallrig stuff - it can get taken more seriously from v2/3(/4/5/6) onwards.

YT comments saying the pan/tilt wheels are inverted, which would be a problem for operators used to larger systems but it looks like you can switch them.
 
rob norton said:
YT comments saying the pan/tilt wheels are inverted, which would be a problem for operators used to larger systems but it looks like you can switch them.
Click to expand...
It's grotesque that the factory default has pan and tilt swapped. Even if no-one on their development team has ever operated a remote head, this information is easily searchable on the web. Sigh...
 
I'm looking into a small quick release system for the gimbal first and foremost, but probably also some to live on top of a rock n roller cart, tripod and possibly inside a pelican case.

Re arca swiss vs. manfrotto 577 type plates:
- https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/241139-REG/Manfrotto_577_577_Rapid_Connect_Adapter.html
- https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1570304-REG/smallrig_2144b_quick_release_clamp_and.html

1) are they effectively the same in terms of usability when mounting or other smaller details while using?

If hard mounted to a top shelf of a cart, or in a case, ideally the tightening knob wouldn't be lower than the plate, which could be points against Manfrotto's system vs. a circular knob. I remember using a knob years ago and it felt really secure, so why go with a latch mechanism if the knob gets you there?

Separate mini spec rant:
Re weight capacities, I emailed manfrotto and smallrig just now asking what the weight limits are, as well as if the capacity applies to all degrees of tilt. I had never thought of different angles (assumed they specify the lowest weight for any possible tilt angle), but then I saw on an extremely obscure DJI support forum, a response about weight capacities being different when sitting flat vs. a 90 degree tilt down having less capacity. This is all pretty tough to get to the bottom of, and I'm sure not many people care, but it'd still be good to know I was within spec with cameras overhead or in other precarious positions, should anything go wrong. Anyway this is a slight derail and that was more about the gimbal's capacity rather than the plate capacities.

Other arca swiss options:
I use plenty of smallrig stuff but still don't 100% trust it when it's holding the camera like in situations mentioned above. I know they've come a long way, but to clarify, it's not the block of metal I'd be worried about, it's the latch mechanism, threads and screws (can replace these).

2) Some arca swiss plates are pretty expensive, but I'm happy to go down this path if needed. What are the best really well-built options. I know there's the kesswler kwik releases, anything else. I know arca swiss is its own brand, so I'm asking about the standard in general and it can be any brand.
 
I dont know if ive answered before.

Some years ago I 'went arca' and threw away 20 manfrtotto 5.77 plates and recievers.

This change occured when the chinese stole all of the arca IP and started making cheap plates... morrally think of that what you will but now im of the opinion that
ARCA STYLE PLATES are for the win

Not only do I mount cameras but also mount thing to cameras and even have some arca plates on the back of things like monitors.

My 'cine' cameras have 200mm plates (and 100mm up top)
My mirrorless cameras have 100mm plates on thier cages
Various thing s (ipad video transmitter) have 50mm plates on them

I have 120mm receivers

Quick Release Plate Compatible with Arca Swiss 120mm QR Clamp Adapter With 1/4 3/8 Screw Converter compatible for Tripod Ball Head: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Free delivery and returns on eligible orders. Buy Quick Release Plate Compatible with Arca Swiss 120mm QR Clamp Adapter With 1/4 3/8 Screw Converter compatible for Tripod Ball Head at Amazon UK.
www.amazon.co.uk

and
50mm round receivers

Andoer® DM-55 Clamp and QR Quick Release Plate with Gradienter for 55mm Camera Ball Head Arca Swiss RRS Wimberley: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Free delivery and returns on eligible orders. Buy Andoer® DM-55 Clamp and QR Quick Release Plate with Gradienter for 55mm Camera Ball Head Arca Swiss RRS Wimberley at Amazon UK.
www.amazon.co.uk

In terms of price and quality.. im stunned by the £15 amazon/andoer/smallrig products

In terms of the 'round lever clashing'.. yes sometimes the knob clashes and I have to put a couple of washers under the andoer to make clearanc.

I have tools in my armour that others may not have.. basically the ability to do small mechanica modification to the plates - maybe to drill some 6mm holes out to 6.5 to sustain 6.35 etc

For the odd days when I encounter a rental arri alexa.. I have a single arri 'wedge' plate to interface with my gear.
 
My standard is to have the plate facing forward to balance a 70-200, my smallrig cages have an inbuild cross arca and then presents some challenges, Ill only bore folk with winning that battle if they care. I care.
 
Thanks @morgan_moore!

I'm keen to become part of team AS.

Do you think RRS isn't great value when smallrig's version is around?
www.smallrig.com

Quick Release Clamp and Plate ( Arca-type Compatible)

Quick Release Clamp and Plate ( Arca-type Compatible)【SmallRig - DIY Camera Rigs, Stabilizers and Other Camera Accessories】
www.smallrig.com www.smallrig.com

Maybe I could use RRS for the camera to gimbal connection, then any other options could go on trolleys etc. where the stakes are still high, but not as much of a safety concern.

I just bought the smallrig version and it seems great.

Side quest - how would you mount say an 80mm receiver flush to the end of hollow steel pipe? Now that the gimbal is getting used a lot more, I want to experiment with the previously mentioned spear set up. Even with a 1m pipe, running a threaded rod or rods then securing at the other end seems like the rod run would be way too flimsy. Any other ideas for hard mounting a plate to the pipe?
 
I dont really have knowledge of the lever closing plates.. I did have one amazon one and it was a bit shti with an aluminium lever. I see it is now discontinued. The smallrig one you show looks great.

Im just not in the $160 RRS class - im sure they are great.

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A side note is some plates are 'safe' with small allen heads to stop slide out accidents. I remove all of these little allen heads so you can slide in fore/aft without a full undo!

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Mounting to the end of a tube is not trivial. I can access some machines . I would

Put longt threaded csk head bolts into the arca receiver

I would then drill the tube crossways

I would then fabricate a threaded barrell nut to 'catch' the two long bolts.

I would sugget 5/8 aluminium for the barrel threaded 1/4whit or M6.
 
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Thanks Sam, I can't believe I got a custom SMM schematic drawn!

With my limited skills and resources (I can grind and drill), what about some type of cheese plate in a shark fin orientation underneath the arca swiss receiver, so it makes the letter "T", then 1/4 20 bolts could attach to the cheese plate inside the pipe via holes drilled in the pipe in line with the cheese plate threads?

For example - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1421873-REG/smallrig_1681_multi_purpose_cheese_plate.html

The receiver could go into the top two holes, then secured as mentioned above.

For the spear, does square vs. round tube matter? Square is probably easier to drill.

I've heard back from smallrig about arca swiss load capacities, I'm waiting for updates from kessler about their kwik release, and RRS about their 80mm clamp - I'll update as I hear more.

Smallrig arca swiss response:

"The load-bearing capacity of the 2144B quick-release rod is generally about 8-10 kg.

Under normal use, if the weight of the device does not exceed 10 kg, it is theoretically safe.
However, it should be noted that if it is installed upside down or tilted 90 degrees downward, it is recommended to check the stability of the locking mechanism regularly to ensure safety."
 
rob norton said:
Side quest - how would you mount say an 80mm receiver flush to the end of hollow steel pipe? Now that the gimbal is getting used a lot more, I want to experiment with the previously mentioned spear set up. Even with a 1m pipe, running a threaded rod or rods then securing at the other end seems like the rod run would be way too flimsy. Any other ideas for hard mounting a plate to the pipe?
Click to expand...
I don't have any specifics to link to, but surely there's a ready-made solution for what you want to do by using speedrail and some combination of car rigging mounts and parts that already exist?
 
DustinSchmidt said:
I don't have any specifics to link to, but surely there's a ready-made solution for what you want to do by using speedrail and some combination of car rigging mounts and parts that already exist?
Click to expand...
You're probably right,

1 - https://modernstudio.com/products/1...542476&pr_ref_pid=144584409100&pr_seq=uniform
2 - https://modernstudio.com/products/i-beam-grid-clamp-set-of-2?variant=32521928998993
3 - https://modernstudio.com/products/pipe-flange-base-for-1-1-2
4 - https://modernstudio.com/products/h...ectangular-base-flange?variant=44303406104803

Stuff like this ^^^ would likely get you there.

Going through each link:
1 - I don't like the single thread, I'd rather two to prevent twisting
2 - Assuming you can attach the arca receiver to the two screws on the other side, this would work, but you're offsetting the center of gravity (hard to imagine full assembled rig), I think it'd be better to keep everything in line with the speed rail for footprint and distribution.
3 - The pipe flange base looks like one of the closest off the shelf options. I'm no rigging expert but I just don't know if the single screw into the speed rail is OK, I naturally think about two screws to prevent twisting. You could always add another bolt to guarantee no twisting.

I guess I'm going for the most minimal design and think hiding the connecting hardware (connecting speed rail to arca swiss receiver) might be beset if it's hidden or partially hidden within the speed rail.
 
My spear is 25mm/1in diametter.

The ->movi attachement is a professionally lathed element.

Professional lathing might be accessable at a local shop.

In terms of attachement to the post I have a grub screw to 'make it tight/stopp wobble' but also a through bolt/pin to stop catastrophic failure

S
 
rob norton said:
You're probably right,

1 - https://modernstudio.com/products/1...542476&pr_ref_pid=144584409100&pr_seq=uniform
2 - https://modernstudio.com/products/i-beam-grid-clamp-set-of-2?variant=32521928998993
3 - https://modernstudio.com/products/pipe-flange-base-for-1-1-2
4 - https://modernstudio.com/products/h...ectangular-base-flange?variant=44303406104803

Stuff like this ^^^ would likely get you there.

Going through each link:
1 - I don't like the single thread, I'd rather two to prevent twisting
2 - Assuming you can attach the arca receiver to the two screws on the other side, this would work, but you're offsetting the center of gravity (hard to imagine full assembled rig), I think it'd be better to keep everything in line with the speed rail for footprint and distribution.
3 - The pipe flange base looks like one of the closest off the shelf options. I'm no rigging expert but I just don't know if the single screw into the speed rail is OK, I naturally think about two screws to prevent twisting. You could always add another bolt to guarantee no twisting.

I guess I'm going for the most minimal design and think hiding the connecting hardware (connecting speed rail to arca swiss receiver) might be beset if it's hidden or partially hidden within the speed rail.
Click to expand...
Yep, looks like you were already thinking along the lines of where I was going with my comment. I see the pros and cons of each of the links you provided.

Agreed, not sure it gets you where you want to be, but might be worth a try on some of the lower cost options. At least they're pre-fabricated and easy to get on hand to give them a go.

Additionally there's plenty of options for vehicle rigging from companies like CineMillled for example. https://cinemilled.com/c/vehicle-rigging-mounting/

Some of that stuff might be handy when it comes to positioning or support?
 
The 'base' flange in aluminium is the closest,


Kee Lite in the UK make this for various tube sizes.

--

Overall I have a reasonable knowledge of whats out there!
 
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