Gimbal project 2024!

Still on the rosd / hard to comment.

I think i mentioned that i have a good two person solution but rarely budget to use it!

I hate onboard joysticks. Remote wheels second op.. good

Steadicam needs huge skill to fake a dolly. (Perfect horizon)
If you want to fake a dolly a gimbal is better


But for a reactive feel of fast whilpy operating (pop video) the steadicam is very learnable and will outdo a gimbal

—

One way to control headroom is to boom up when closing in. No electric tech needed. And perfect verticals - super cinematic.
 
My second op system sits on a remote fluid head.

Getting something on the rig is a considerattion

But not a nice one.

Left hand booms right hand points - so which hand joysticks?
 
I realised after I posted that the phone can't be on the rig at all because the gimbal would be copying its movement.

I've got a cheese plate to phone mount for a tripod head. I used it recently to control the gimbal on a dana dolly and it worked really well.

I think right hand throws the spear, left hand frantically tilts at the last second.
 
morgan_moore said:
One way to control headroom is to boom up when closing in. No electric tech needed. And perfect verticals - super cinematic.
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Well, that is the time-worn way to do it on Steadicam. But there are many times when you have to tilt, such as being far enough away from the subject that booming isn't enough. Many operating gimbals never learned this technique, especially when hand-holding, because there is a given height that the gimbal is generally carried at which is the most comfortable (or I should say, least uncomfortable) and booming for headroom is a nuance that they can't or won't be bothered with.
 
Chummo bought an rs4 today.

Played for five mins - im now an expert.

You can lock a tilt offset with the “joy” stick

This means its good to be a poor mans trinity.

Ill probsbly buy one.

To tilt (with “joy” stick) during a shot seems challenging to do with any “humanity”

My hope is that a handy system could be made.. but for “proper” sensotive work a two up team would be needed.
 
For me at least, it's funny how stabilisation is hardly the appeal at all. Things like remote control are way more handy. If gimbals didn't have this ability I still wouldn't own one.
 
rob norton said:
For me at least, it's funny how stabilisation is hardly the appeal at all. Things like remote control are way more handy. If gimbals didn't have this ability I still wouldn't own one.
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It's kind of both. I owned an R2 for a few years and never once used it as anything other than a remote head. The fact that it was a stab head was definitely the clincher. But you kind of have to put up with a lot along the way--kind of finicky to balance, and limitations in payload size was always a little frustrating.
 
Back at computer.For a bit.

So to summarasie my 'thoughts' after playting with the rs4.

1) it will work
2)because you can using the joystick dial in a level while the device is on an angle.
..this is important at you can 'set' your 'trinity' to be flown at 45 degress.. or even spear mode (maybe)

45 degrees is important as you can find a pose where your legs and the vlocks/wahtever bottom mass you have are not meeting - hard to explain.

So.. for single operator you may do basic moves.

To follow a face, to reset and follow some feet or a dog in 'lo mode'

I think that to make big boom moves like starting on feet and booming to face one would need to use the horrid joystick and this is unliekley to be elegant.. so for big moves a head operator would be needed.. which opens cans as you need good vision transmission etc.

To physically build it I guess an a30 rig can be modded up and gives you all the complext bits.. vest, arm, gimbal, sled.

Version 2 would be to swap the sled for a custom item.

To hang at 45 degrees my rig has rods at the bottom and the bottom vlock and transmission box can be mungled to make it 'sit' at 45 degrees.

If the sec ond op is using a phone to control this should be mounted on a tripod with a decent remote monitor onboard.
 
morgan_moore said:
1) it will work
2)because you can using the joystick dial in a level while the device is on an angle.
..this is important at you can 'set' your 'trinity' to be flown at 45 degress.. or even spear mode (maybe)
Click to expand...

One thing I forgot was you can assign the rear dial to control either pan/roll/tilt. For tilting, using your index finger on the dial is much better than a thumb on the small joystick, which has potential to impact panning at the same time.

Unless on the joystick you can turn off panning, while still tilting, which (in theory, probably not in reality), would give you slightly more real estate to tilt more precisely, since your thumb could move a greater distance on a diagonal to reach the same position on the vertical tilt axis - a poor person's larger joystick. I have to check if it's even a feature.

Separate note but the rosco DMG app used to control their DMG lumiere line of fixutres has a feature where you can dim with your finger in a square within the app, e.g. for when rapid manual changes are needed like a TV effect etc. If you run out of room in the designated area, it lets you continue the dim even as you leave the dimming zone. Essentially it gave you access to your entire phone/tablet if needed, but kept the app overlay, so since you'd already engaged the dim, it didn't matter if your finger was over other important information.

My point is you would think a combination of rear dial for index finger and small joystick has potential to somehow give a feel of a larger joystick. Maybe the joystick won't ever be the correct tool, but surely some type of grip which allows smart use of multiple fingers/thumbs, along various dampening settings, could get pretty close to a responsible solo op tilting system?
 
I dont know. Usually that hand is below the gimbal in a trad steadicam.

Im of an age that hates joysticks and I never played computer games.

So it might work of course and I think you can also do many shots by trimming tilt before turnover.

Using my 'mimic' on a tripod - the camera position tracking the tripod head- second operator mode - is really nice as was Mrs Meisel.
 
I'm not saying solo op is good yet or can ever compete with two people, just that if tilting is a big issue, there's still a lot of room for improvement, not like we're up against an absolute limitation of another type.
 
I dont get you. But the movi cannot tilt and cant be built into a solo op trinity if that is what you mean.

The ronin can which makes it a “goer”

(Have a tilt offset)
 
rob norton said:
. Maybe the joystick won't ever be the correct tool, but surely some type of grip which allows smart use of multiple fingers/thumbs, along various dampening settings, could get pretty close to a responsible solo op tilting system?
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RIght after the Movi emerged a decade ago I sketched this concept for mounting a gimbal on a Steadicam, with a section of post captive within a triple-axis mount that would give 1:1 control of pan, tilt and roll if desired. I was absolutely convinced I'd see something like this emerge shortly. It still hasn't.
 

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That's cool! So you'd hold the post and it mimics wrist movement?

What about a mini set of master wheels or at least a single wheel for tilt?
 
rob norton said:
That's cool! So you'd hold the post and it mimics wrist movement?

What about a mini set of master wheels or at least a single wheel for tilt?
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Can't quite wrap my head around flying a rig on the body and operating a handwheel! I mean I guess it's possible.

My thought with my design was that you'd operate it as if it were the center post of a Steadicam, pushing it forward for tilt, rotating for pan etc. Obviously it would have encoders at the bearings. Some sort of range knob for each axis so you can stretch or compress the range required for a given shot (so instead of 1:1 response, you can make it 2:1, 3:1 etc as required).
 
CharlesPapert said:
I was absolutely convinced I'd see something like this emerge shortly. It still hasn't.
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Gimbals have joysticks for the post computer game kids to operate.. oldies now have trad steadicam with horizon control/assist do they not?.. so all bases are covered without your tech.... until the kids realise thier joystick is not so joyful when bouncing around in the back of a jeep.

As it happens my 'joystick' (a long story) sits on three 6 axis special springs to aid operation when in a jeep.
 
Im sorry as this project is mainly twin operator and unpaid it has been slipping down the queue for 5 years.. a few reports!

Seeing the rs4 - my Movi efforts may be best abandoned or saved for 'serious cinema'

some bits.. but dont really show the controller.. just my mad constructions!


this is the sec ond op unit with mimic, remote vision and remote focus..
 

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morgan_moore said:
Gimbals have joysticks for the post computer game kids to operate.. oldies now have trad steadicam with horizon control/assist do they not?.. so all bases are covered without your tech.... until the kids realise thier joystick is not so joyful when bouncing around in the back of a jeep.

As it happens my 'joystick' (a long story) sits on three 6 axis special springs to aid operation when in a jeep.
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I still see a lot of joystick operated tilt that is not properly reactive enough. I just think that it is a bad fit when one's body is on the move at the same time--too small of a muscle motion, too difficult to feather in and out of at lightning speed. In the same way that the wheels require a greater movement of the hands and wrist (especially when geared down), my concept involves the entire wrist moving through a significant arc which allows for more nuance. Camera operation at a high level is not a function of continuous speed, it's a series of micro-corrections where one may speed up or slow down within an overall move. If one was to graph it, you'd see a lot of variation in the curves.

TL;DR: a majority of operators with gimbals either on or off Steadicam regularly blow headroom especially on pushing in/pulling back shots, because of these dumb joysticks.
 
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