Doug_EX
Well-known member
I agree, for this, the graph is very useful.
GH5 GH5s Dual I.S. perfomance versus 5-axis stabilization of GH5.
- Thread starter Danilo Del Tufo
- Start date
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Just out of curiosity how well does IBIS work with lenses that do not support dual IS or have stabilization at all? The reason I ask is I currently don't own a single lens that works with dual IS so I'm wondering just how useful the IBIS on the GH5 would be for me. I also don't plan on buying any new m43 lenses that would support dual IS. Is the lack of IBIS on the GH5s a smaller concern when one doesn't plan on ever using any lenses that support dual IS? My next lens purchase is a Tamron 70-200 f2.8 with Vibration control in the EF mount.
joe12south
Veteran
It works really well with any lens. In fact, I don't see a tremendous difference with lenses that support dual. (I'm normally shooting with full-manual, adapted cine glass, for example, and IBIS works great.)
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Thanks for making this more difficult...
joe12south
Veteran
Ha! Sorry. Can you wait until you can rent both?
fboonzaier
Well-known member
This graph might help visualize how big a difference there is between 12 stops of sensitivity and 14 stops. I would be shocked if the GH5s can resolve 14 stops.
Same here...this would put it in Varicam and EVA territory and as good as the image is, 14 stops DR is a very wide range...as it is to me Panasonic calls their DR conservatively...the Varicam image is very comfortable next to the Alexa, yet the Classic is rated as 14+stops by Arri and the Varicam 14 stops...and I don't think Arri exaggerates, and though of course completely subjective, I prefer the Varicam image in every way...of course it's 4K, but the DR holds up to the Alexa.
fboonzaier
Well-known member
Yes!...the human eye is rated at around 20 stops, but as Thomas points out, we don't get 2 stops more image quality between 12and 14 stops, but we do move closer to the subtlety of film as the DR climbs....after about 10 stops though it's a rapidly diminishing return in IQ...most people never notice any difference at that point (not including filmmakers here)
That's because our eyes have irises that normally automatically adjust to the brightness of the environment. If I remember correctly our vision has about 10 stops of dynamic-range without iris changes.
ozmorphasis
Well-known member
Wait! You don't have (nor have used) a GH5 with its IBIS? This makes some of your posts about IBIS vs low-light sensitivity make a lot more sense if that is the case.
Definitely VERY effective with non-IS lenses, but that's what a lot of us have been trying to say. It's SO effective, that it's hard to go back to not having it once you get used to having it...even if you weren't looking for it in the first place.
BTW, I have a non VC Tamron 70-200. Good lens, and I can get totally usable footage at 200mm with it handheld. That's kind of amazing since even my 50mm and 85mm looked like crap on my GH4 handheld, and even on a monopod they looked worse than what I can do with the GH and IBIS. Haven't tried the 70-200 VC so I have no idea how well it compares to the IBIS. I can say that the Canon 70-200mm mk2 IS through a Metabones adapter is pretty damn good. One of the best stabilized lenses I've ever used. Haven't done a back to back A/B test with the GH5 IBIS but I wouldn't be surprised if the Canon bests the IBIS. It's that good.
Such an inexpensive camera to rent.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Yes my posts had a certain position because I have shot video on cameras for over twenty years without IBIS and there are still a ton of people out there not shooting on the GH5 that manage to pull off creative shots and award winning material without IBIS. My posts were not about the lack of usefulness of IBIS but that it is a single tool. an effective tool of course but that many of us have worked without IBIS in the past with great results. There are a good chunk of us that never hit the record button unless the camera is on a Tripod, crane, steady cam, slider or at the very least a monopod. Just something we got used to. sure it would be great to not have to use that gear but even with IBIS I'm still going to shoot on a tripod, crane, steady cam and slider. Ok maybe in some circumstances I might eliminate the steady cam. My argument was never that the loss of IBIS doesn't suck but that there are still thousands of highly skilled and paid professionals that manage without IBIS so if something had to be sacrificed I'm glad that was the only thing. IBIS is a tool of convenience but in no way is it the only creative tool to get the shot. Might seem like that vs hauling around a ton of gear but where there is a will there is a way.
I just feel as skilled professionals we shouldn't become dependent on a single tool to the point where if IBIS suddenly went away we no longer feel we can deliver the same quality. I choose to live in the camp where we can still get the shot. The thing with IBIS is there are alternatives. There are no alternatives to suck in more light.
I have no problem with users choosing the GH5 over the GH5s. Thats entirely why Panasonic made both and their original intention was to release both at the same time. I have a problem with the negativity towards the Gh5s as if it is flawed or defective in some way. It is not defective and does exactly what it was designed to do and what is possible due to the physics. You cannot increase the sensitivity of a m43 sensor to this level without making the pixels larger and expanding how much of the image circle is used on that sensor. There is physically no space left to implement IBIS. But again thats why there are two parallel choices. You choose less sensitivity with IBIS or you maximize the sensitivity and get rid of IBIS. You prefer the IBIS and I know I can still use other gear to get around the lack of IBIS. Doesn't make you lazy or make me clueless. Just means we choose different choices as to what is important.
For me the important factor of the GH5s is the dual native ISO. Basically what that means is that I can suddenly use any zoom lens at f5.6 for the roughly same noise and dynamic range of a prime lens shooting f2.2 on the GH5. The extra sensitivity isn't so much about shooting in the dark as it is to expand the GH5s into a lens convenience where I can slap on my old 14-140 f4-f5.8 and get about the same low light quality as a f2.8 zoom lens on the Gh5. I would never have to worry about swapping lenses which is also a game changer for run&gun. It means I can shoot a seminar from the back of a ballroom with a f5.6 super zoom and not have to worry about it anymore. The f2.8 zooms suddenly have the sensitivity of a f1.1 zoom lens with the ease of focus of a f2.8 lens. Thats pretty significant for a lot of productions that do not involve any type of handheld shooting. No matter how good IBIS is nobody is going to shoot a two hour long seminar from the back of a room hand holding.
Both the GH5 and GH5s are equally effective and capable tools. They each make a sacrifice and each of us has to decide what is more important. That does not however make one camera inferior over the other.
fboonzaier
Well-known member
+1...and for me your point re using slow lenses is far more relevant, than the fact the the GH5s can virtually shoot in the dark...and if the camera indeed proves out to have extra dynamic range, it will be an automatic must for me...and though I have a recently discovered bias towards IBIS, if I bought the GH5s, I would simply build it out as a heavy camera living on sticks/shoulder pad/VCT plate and permanently on one of my big tripods or slider....my only interest is in narrative...so as such the camera would suit me ideally....I could also echo your sentiment in the criticism of the GH5/s AF system....completely irrelevant to me....I've never used it in my life...anyway....I would be interest in your feedback when you do shoot on a GH5 using IBIS...I was forewarned about how much I would like it, but still unprepared for what a luxury it was....and perhaps that's all it is....a luxury...and perhaps a combination of the 5 and 5s will turn out to be the perfect camera for me in the end....for a few years at least
joe12south
Veteran
https://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2018/1/8/panasonic-gh5s-hdr10
Really good explanation of Dual ISO's impact on dynamic range. Also note the use of the phrase "nearly 14 stops."
Really good explanation of Dual ISO's impact on dynamic range. Also note the use of the phrase "nearly 14 stops."
soarprod
Veteran
To realistically depict that logarithmic visual response, your chart should have been plotted on a semi-logarithmic graph, with a linear X-axis and a logarithmic Y-axis. That would have shown equal increases in brightness with each step of exposure.
Also, bear in mind that a sensor's dynamic range starts at the highlight end of the scale, not the shadows. A 12-stop camera would lack the darkest two stops of a 14-stop camera's DR, while capturing the same amount of highlight detail.
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Bruce Foreman
Veteran
...I would be interest in your feedback when you do shoot on a GH5 using IBIS...I was forewarned about how much I would like it, but still unprepared for what a luxury it was....and perhaps that's all it is....a luxury...and perhaps a combination of the 5 and 5s will turn out to be the perfect camera for me in the end....for a few years at least
I haven't had much chance to put my GH5 through the "wringer" yet but from what casual video testing I've done I can say the IBIS is nothing short of amazing to the degree to which "jitters" and hand shake are taken care of. At my age (79) I can't do that smooth "duck walk" for more than a few paces but on a lightweight shoulder rig (original PVC SpiderBrace) most handheld unwanted motion is really smoothed out. Same for the G85 and GX85 (have it with me anywhere camera).
But I haven't sold my GH4 yet. Might to partially fund a GH5s though.
I guess ultimately I'd want to have both the GH5 and GH5s.
ozmorphasis
Well-known member
Couldn't agree more.
fboonzaier
Well-known member
My experience too...especially on longer lenses, you really notice how well it does!...
filmguy123
Veteran
Entitled, negative, meh, meh. It's less about negativity, and more about love.
Let me tell you a story.
Once upon a time, a young boy met a beautiful girl named Ibis. He had heard about her from some friends, and was skeptical. But upon meeting her, it was love at first sight. No, she wasn't perfect, but she was so beautiful, fun, talented, and low maintenance. They hit it off immediately, and she injected a sort of life and creative energy into this young boy's heart. He had lived without her all his life - well over 20 years - but now, he could hardly imagine life without her.
One thing lead to another, and soon they found themselves married, living in a small home in the woods. It was a lovely home, but not their dream home. It was woodsy, but it was a little dark. The sunlight couldn't break through, the windows were small. They dreamed of a life together in a modern, hillside home with sweeping vistas and large windows to let in all of the natural light.
One day, they found their dream home, and in excitement, raced to the bank to withdraw funds. It had been a long, hard search - for there were no other houses on the market! Upon meeting the seller, they were struck with an ultimatum. "Only one person may live here in this home. You can come, but you cannot come together." They were devastated. They had long talks in the evening about what to do. They could hardly stand the idea of parting, but they could hardly stand to keep living in such a dark home. Perhaps each could live there separately for a few days a week, so they may experience both.
But it wasn't the same. They decided that they would make it work for now, but they longed for the day when they may live together in such a home. Perhaps the market would bring something new their way in the future.
Some of their friends called them negative, some discussed their generations entitlement, but they knew they were neither. They just knew they loved each other very much.
Let me tell you a story.
Once upon a time, a young boy met a beautiful girl named Ibis. He had heard about her from some friends, and was skeptical. But upon meeting her, it was love at first sight. No, she wasn't perfect, but she was so beautiful, fun, talented, and low maintenance. They hit it off immediately, and she injected a sort of life and creative energy into this young boy's heart. He had lived without her all his life - well over 20 years - but now, he could hardly imagine life without her.
One thing lead to another, and soon they found themselves married, living in a small home in the woods. It was a lovely home, but not their dream home. It was woodsy, but it was a little dark. The sunlight couldn't break through, the windows were small. They dreamed of a life together in a modern, hillside home with sweeping vistas and large windows to let in all of the natural light.
One day, they found their dream home, and in excitement, raced to the bank to withdraw funds. It had been a long, hard search - for there were no other houses on the market! Upon meeting the seller, they were struck with an ultimatum. "Only one person may live here in this home. You can come, but you cannot come together." They were devastated. They had long talks in the evening about what to do. They could hardly stand the idea of parting, but they could hardly stand to keep living in such a dark home. Perhaps each could live there separately for a few days a week, so they may experience both.
But it wasn't the same. They decided that they would make it work for now, but they longed for the day when they may live together in such a home. Perhaps the market would bring something new their way in the future.
Some of their friends called them negative, some discussed their generations entitlement, but they knew they were neither. They just knew they loved each other very much.
Bassman2003
Veteran
My guess is that we will have to wait at least a year or two for the GH6s or maybe sooner for the DVX300 with the same light gathering ability and IBIS. The GH6 will need to be a higher megapixel stills camera, so this sensor is out of the running.