GH4 GH5: Difference between C4K 10bit 150M 24p MP4 (LPCM) and MOV?

M

Mike@AF

Veteran
Subject basically says it all. Both the MP4 (LPCM) and MOV record formats have the option of C4K 10bit 150M 24p. I've recorded both and don't notice a difference between them. What is the difference and why would I want to choose one over the other?
 
Mike@AF said:
Subject basically says it all. Both the MP4 (LPCM) and MOV record formats have the option of C4K 10bit 150M 24p. I've recorded both and don't notice a difference between them. What is the difference and why would I want to choose one over the other?
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The video codec is the same so there is no difference in quality.
However the MP4 and MOV container do not support the same audio codecs.
 
They both say LPCM for the audio. So are they both the same with the only difference being the file extension?
 
So if I'm not using the XLR adapter it doesn't matter. Why do they bother having the MP4 (LPCM) option there if it's the same picture quality as MOV and has the same file size with the same audio settings? They should just have MOV and then have you set the audio quality.
 
Mike@AF said:
So if I'm not using the XLR adapter it doesn't matter. Why do they bother having the MP4 (LPCM) option there if it's the same picture quality as MOV and has the same file size with the same audio settings? They should just have MOV and then have you set the audio quality.
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Not all NLEs support all containers.
 
Which one has the most compatibility? I've tested in Premiere Pro, FCPX, and Resolve Studio and both containers work fine with all of those with no noticeable difference.
 
Mike@AF said:
Which one has the most compatibility? I've tested in Premiere Pro, FCPX, and Resolve Studio and both containers work fine with all of those with no noticeable difference.
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The MP4 wrapper is the most universal across the most consumer devices. I can't think of any pro tool (especially on a Mac) that doesn't support the MOV wrapper.
 
One thing that sometimes could be a problem is that the unlike MP4 the Quicktime MOV container has no full vs video levels flag. It can be derived in other ways but MP4 is clearer about it.
 
Hi

I've checked my MOV files from the GH5 using MediaInfo and it correctly reports Color range: Full or Limited depending on the camera setting, however Sony Vegas ignores that completely! Audio from the GH5 in the MOV file is 48KHz/16bits the same as it is in the MP4 LPCM option.

I will try MP4, maybe Vegas will treat the file correctly for range on that format.

Regards

Phil
 
Panasonic TVs dont play MOV. MP4 plays fine but there is no help having flags. TV players and computer players dont read flags. If I shoot 0-255 players burns whites and clips blacks.
 
Vesku said:
Panasonic TVs dont play MOV. MP4 plays fine but there is no help having flags. TV players and computer players dont read flags. If I shoot 0-255 players burns whites and clips blacks.
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I would strongly recommend to record video levels unless the format requires full range (like some log formats).

On a PC using a monitor connected to the GPU you would want to expand video levels to full range, obviously full range videos will clip under those circumstances.

Here is a test video to see if you correctly expand your video levels to full range:

 
I shoot always 0-255 but when I show my video clips to friends we always loose highligths and shadows. The video quality with my GH4 0-255 when watched with correct levels is very good and banding free compared to 16-235. 16-235 looks noisy and has much more banding.
 
Vesku said:
I shoot always 0-255 but when I show my video clips to friends we always loose highligths and shadows. The video quality with my GH4 0-255 when watched with correct levels is very good and banding free compared to 16-235. 16-235 looks noisy and has much more banding.
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Again I would recommend video levels, it's an industry standard!
 
Hi

I too shoot 0-255, the extra values are useful as you get a bit more to play with when editing, essentially more picture information is recorded for increasing/decreasing exposure. When targeting TV then I adjust the levels accordingly, but for playback on a computer with decent monitors having 0-255 from start to finish gives a bit extra for free. 16-235 is around 10.5 million colours, with 0-255 it's 16.5 million, which is around 50% extra, why wouldn't you?

Yes 16-235 is a TV standard, but 0-255 is a computer standard, the option is there for a reason.

Regards

Phil
 
Better to capture at the full range and then export final project within legal levels. Potentially gives you more information and detail and thus more to work with in post.
 
I thought the OP was asking about 10bit? The beauty of 10bit is you can stay in a broadcast standard and still have the extra range to work with.

Where I would also highly suggest staying in a video legal luma range is when working with external monitors or capture devices. Most external HDMI input devices work on a 16-235 range and do a rough remapping when fed a 0-255 signal. This results in a more contrasty video on the monitors. If anybody plans on using an external monitor/recorder/switcher/streaming device then it is better to use 16-235. The Odyssey is one of the only external monitors I know of that actually takes in a 0-255 signal properly. I have a bunch of BMD capture devices and none of them take in 0-255 either. I laugh at all the external recorder reviews that think the recorders create darker video as some form of enhancement. Nope its a luma range conversion bug that companies like Atomos refuse to address. I have asked them for years to create a solution. It is possible to do and Convergent Design has done it. If anybody does any external recording they can seriously blow out the highs and crush the darks if they are not careful. There is a way to fix the flag in some NLEs to attempt to get back to a normal video range but it is always better to start with a correct range if at all possible. Created a plugin for FCPX to fix the luma range for GH4 V-log material since V-log forces a 0-255 range.

0-255 only really makes sense if one sticks to 8bit video and will never use any form of external device. If recording 10bit on the GH5 I wouldn't really worry about the tiny range loss. There are more than enough samples there to grade with.
 
Thomas Smet said:
I thought the OP was asking about 10bit? The beauty of 10bit is you can stay in a broadcast standard and still have the extra range to work with.
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No. I wasn't asking about 10-bit. I know the advantages of 10-bit. I was asking about the different 10-bit formats the GH5 can shoot. It can shoot 10-bit as both MOV and MP4. So I was wondering what the difference between 10-bit MOV and 10-bit MP4 are and why you would choose one over the other.
 
Mike@AF said:
No. I wasn't asking about 10-bit. I know the advantages of 10-bit. I was asking about the different 10-bit formats the GH5 can shoot. It can shoot 10-bit as both MOV and MP4. So I was wondering what the difference between 10-bit MOV and 10-bit MP4 are and why you would choose one over the other.
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Oh I was wondering how it drifted to a conversation about luma range.

As for the containers if you are on a Mac use the mov. FCPX reads the luma flag in mov perfectly fine as does Resolve. Mov is also easier to import into programs other than a NLE like Motion or animation/conversion programs that may not read mp4 as easily. If you are on a PC use mp4 as Quicktime isn't support as well. There isn't really much else to say about the containers. Mov will not seamlessly import as a single clip for longer takes. mp4 will. Not much of an issue anymore since the GH5 can create much larger files than the GH4.

I am on a Mac and personally prefer the mov format because the files are right there like you would expect files on a SD card to be. No funky mp4 container that you have to jump through hoops to get individual files. Sometimes what I shoot is intended to go straight into Fusion and it is nice to bypass having to unwrap the mp4 container to get those files to work in Fusion.
 
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