GH4 GH5 Audio Unit VS a Universal option (IE Zoom H4N Pro)

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filmguy123

Veteran
So I am definitely interested in the GH5 audio unit, however doing a little research, it seems to me to make no sense to purchase this unit for almost $400 that can be used exclusively with the GH5. On the plus side, the controls look nice, and it handles both line and mic level while providing phantom power all from the same battery, and automatic sync. GREAT!

On the other hand, it seems I could do mostly the same thing from another option? The only questions will be the sync quality, the size/weight issue, and overall recording quality and features.

As I understand, the new updated Zoom H4N "Pro" uses the circuitry from the higher end H5/H6 models. Great! However, it does not appear to do line-level recording. Bummer! It would be really great to have the option to record direct feeds in from a soundboard at live events.

The Tascam on the other hand does not have as good of recording circuitry/noise flower as the newest H4N Pro model, and a little clunkier interface, but DOES do line level recording and is much cheaper. Great!

And then there are a pletheroa of other options...

I also understand that I can use an attenuation cable to route the mixed audio feed from an external recorder like the Zoom directly into the GH4 for automatic sync, is this correct? Anything the GH5 audio unit might do better here?

Cable like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Sescom-LN2MI...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=61TDDMSSYTEA0ZNQ86X9


So my question is, why not go universal, so I can take my audio unit to any camera, or use it independent of the camera at 100 feet away?

What is my best external recorder option for this, that retains a light and portable style, while providing a great clear audio signal, ideally line level input as well, and will allow me to pass through the camera input 3/8 mic port to keep everything synced to begin with?

I guess one other option would be just getting BOTH the H4N Pro and Tascam DR40 - H4N Pro for better quality, Tascam DR40 just for line level inputs when needed.

Thoughts? What are my options here? Or am I missing something, and the GH5 audio unit would be a more ideal choice?
 
Well, you should check out the audio forum for more info on recorders. The Tascam DR-701D is an interesting option: it can sync timecode from the camera's HDMI output, and also automatically start and stop recording audio when the camera starts and stops recording video. The preamps are reputed to be pretty good. (We'll have to wait and see how good the preamps are on Panasonic's audio unit.)

Another option would be to get a separate preamp, like the Sound Devices Mixpre-D. That could then be fed into the DR-40 and/or the GH5.
 
For a lot of shooters paying $400 for a compact all-in-one solution makes a lot of sense. For instance, tomorrow I'm shooting a 6 hour event for a non-profit group. For some of the time I'll be shooting speakers at a podium where I'll be hooked up to a press feed. Some of it will be spent moving throughout their facility filming b-roll of volunteers working where I'll need to capture natural sound using a phantom powered shotgun. Some of it will be filming impromptu interviews with volunteers where I'll use a wireless lav. I'll be moving from place to place for all 6 hours. In this type of situation I don't want to worry about carrying multiple types of batteries that need changed at different intervals. I'm not editing this, so I'll need to hand off my footage at the end of the day so having synced audio / video is essential. I don't want to drag separate pieces of equipment from room to room all day. For this I'll be shooting on a DVX200 because it's just easier to have an all-in-one package.

For me personally I like the all-in one approach. If the quality of the Panasonic adapter is any good I'd definitely purchase it when I buy a Gh5. You seem pretty well versed on the pros and cons of each options, so just go with what fits your shooting style.
Also, if you do go with the H4N look up "line to mic attenuator" like this https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68603-REG/Shure_A15LA_A15LA_Line_Adapter.html so you don't have to buy 2 recorders.
 
Chmiola said:
Also, if you do go with the H4N look up "line to mic attenuator" like this https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68603-REG/Shure_A15LA_A15LA_Line_Adapter.html so you don't have to buy 2 recorders.
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Whoooaaaa... thanks! I'm not an audio pro, so didn't even know this was an option. Guess that solves that one. Thank you!

Regarding all-in-one, I hear you - but wouldn't mounting the H4N with a hotshoe to the top of the GH and plugging it into the GH mic input with an attenuation cable for sync be the exact same thing, but with way more flexibility in the hardware (not to mention universally compatible), and with redundant copies of the audio? The only downside I can see is the batteries being different, but given that they last 6-10 hours on the H4N Pro that's a full day of shooting, and swapping AAs is easy enough in the event of an extra long day I would think. You can also get rechargeable AAs. And then your GH batteries last longer too, since they aren't drawing extra power.

Not at all arguing the point because preference is everything - just trying to clarify what I am actually choosing here in case I am missing something. The real question is of course the unknown, as in, what is the quality of the PreAmp on the Lumix audio unit VS H4N Pro. Assuming they are equal, the H4N seems like a far more flexible and long term option, for half the price?
 
Question on quality:

GH4 internal audio does a pretty decent job. How much better would the quality of routing through an external recorder like Zoom or other be in comparison to simply recording direct into camera via an impedance transforming XLR to 3/8 Mic? Is the Zoom H5 (or other) pre-amp/quality benefits worth the hassle?
 
filmguy123 said:
Whoooaaaa... thanks! I'm not an audio pro, so didn't even know this was an option. Guess that solves that one. Thank you!

Regarding all-in-one, I hear you - but wouldn't mounting the H4N with a hotshoe to the top of the GH and plugging it into the GH mic input with an attenuation cable for sync be the exact same thing, but with way more flexibility in the hardware (not to mention universally compatible), and with redundant copies of the audio? The only downside I can see is the batteries being different, but given that they last 6-10 hours on the H4N Pro that's a full day of shooting, and swapping AAs is easy enough in the event of an extra long day I would think. You can also get rechargeable AAs. And then your GH batteries last longer too, since they aren't drawing extra power.

Not at all arguing the point because preference is everything - just trying to clarify what I am actually choosing here in case I am missing something. The real question is of course the unknown, as in, what is the quality of the PreAmp on the Lumix audio unit VS H4N Pro. Assuming they are equal, the H4N seems like a far more flexible and long term option, for half the price?
Click to expand...

I did the exact thing you're talking about when I used a Gh1 and the original H4N. I thought it was a little clunky on fast paced shoots having to record on 2 devices, the H4N was pretty big compared to the Gh1, and you lost your hot shoe so mounting a wireless unit needed even more rigging.

Quality wise you'll get best results syncing in post. If you take the output of the H4 and attenuate it to mic level, then you're going through a second mic preamp stage on the camera to raise the level again. I don't know if the Gh5 audio unit handles this differently, but it's definitely the case with the H4.
 
My basic setup feeding audio into my cameras is to use a higher quality mixer as a front end and just use the cameras as a bit bucket. My primary mixer is a Sound Devices 302 which I then feed to a Sound Devices 702T recorder, as well as all cameras on set.

One issue I have noticed is many audio recorders folks are using and then feeding the output into their camera, have a slight latency between the input and output. Which means that the audio being recorded in camera, that you are trying to not have to be re-synced in post, still needs to be jacked with in post because of the audio being off by X number of frames. Many of these folks are then having issues trying to get things in perfect sync because they are using edit software which only supports audio sync at a frame level rather than at the sample level.
 
Chmiola said:
I did the exact thing you're talking about when I used a Gh1 and the original H4N. I thought it was a little clunky on fast paced shoots having to record on 2 devices .......... I don't know if the Gh5 audio unit handles this differently, but it's definitely the case with the H4.
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The Zoom H5 looks a bit less clunky than the H4, with better build + ability to remove stereo mics. I guess that is the real question, if the GH5 audio unit handles this different and provides full quality recording into the GH5 (and if it does, if that's more on the camera level itself where feeding an H5 signal into the GH5 with a different recorder would ALSO fair better). It seems the real question will be quality levels of Zoom H5 vs GH5 audio unit?


David W. Jones said:
many audio recorders folks are using and then feeding the output into their camera, have a slight latency between the input and output. Which means that the audio being recorded in camera, that you are trying to not have to be re-synced in post, still needs to be jacked with in post
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Interesting!! Do you know if the zoom would the Zoom H5 have this problem routing into GH4? Or is this just some of the more complicated daisy chained setups, or lower quality recorder units?

The Zoom H5, which I had missed, seems to handle all the other complaints: No attenuator cable needed to get into the GH, any cable will do. Handles line level input natively. Smaller, lighter, better build. Physical knobs. Better Preamps than H4N traditional.

Anything else I might be overlooking?
 
Most of my needs are for capturing dialog and not music so my needs might be different than others. I have found the audio just using the GH4 to be as good as that captured on my Tascam DR40 or DR05. I still use the recorders on most shoots as a backup audio capture but rarely need to use it. Many times I use the Tascam inline with the mic and camera so that the mic goes into the Tascam and the Camera mic in is linked to the Tascam's line out. This has never been a problem and I have never used an attenuator and never had an issue. I have also captured audio directly from sound boards & PA systems directly to the camera (and Tascams ) without issues although in one venue they supply a large filter box because their audio feed is so noisy.

I have found the the Rode micro needs attenuation on the GH4 so when I use that mic I use a passive mixer to cut the level as the camera settings do not go low enough for that mic. This little unit works well for that purpose: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1116260-REG/kopul_cmx_1_2_channel_mixer_with.html

I do occasionally have a latency problem where the audio is off by a couple of frames but this seems to most often occur when a wireless mic is the source.
 
It seems the audio guys on the sub forum are saying it's not about an external recorder, it's about an external Pre-Amp. External recorder from what I am gathering is just about higher bitrate recording (24-bit 96khz) vs 16-bit 48khz internal GH4. The pre-amps in a Zoom H5 or Tascam are a little better for sure, but not light years. It seems to reason that this will also be the case on the external GH5 audio unit - good pass through device, a little improvement in pre-amps, convenience.

But external recorders if you're after quality are a bit like using an external 4:2:2 ProRes recorder on an HVX200. You need a better image sensor, not a better way to capture a mediorce image. Enter the Pre-Amp.

It seems with a good pre-amp, you could just skip the external recorder all together. Yes, the ultimate solution seems to be Pre-Amp -> External Recorder -> GH4, but going PreAmp -> GH4 if you don't need the options afforded by the external recorder are a bit like upgrading a camera sensor massively and sticking with a good enough codec. Adding an external recorder is like a tiny sensor upgrade and a massively better codec.

Both is ultimate, but if you had to choose one - depending on your needs - it seems a good pre-amp is what I am after...

(I am articulating back what I have learned, so if this is inaccurate, please correct me!!! And if you are browsing this thread later, don't take me as an expert on this, I am only a student ;)).
 
I think not worrying about changing AA batteries over a multi day shoot is reason alone for Panasonic's audio unit. Will you need a cable connected to the camera? No cable is another huge plus. I'm guessing the shoe mount will be pretty solid. People worried about the audio box snapping off are being paranoid.
 
I've been using the Zooms (H4N, H6, and a few H1s) for years now. Had an awful experience with the Zoom H6 in that the headphone jack broke and Zoom won't repair it. They just sell you a brand new unit at a discount: about $180. My H4N just stopped functioning after a few years of use. A Zoom H1 has an issue with its power switch getting disconnected every now and again. Yes, I use these things a lot and they go through a lot, but in comparison, Panasonic products have never really failed on me. I've dropped my GX85 multiple times, same with my GH3. They are scratched and dented and still work. I have no doubt that the Panasonic audio unit will be built to the same standards.

The faster I can ditch using an external recorder, the happier I'll be. The one thing I've learned from going from DSLRs back to the DVX200 is that the less batteries and cables and bits and pieces I have to worry about, the easier my shooting day is.
 
So in the end, I've settled on Juicelink Riggy Micro for $330.

Also a helpful video here

Reason being, from what I understand, the difference between 16bit 44hz and 24bit 96 is virtually meaningless for most of us, unless doing very high end audio work or musical recordings, etc. There's some more room to easily correct audio problems in post @ 24bit, but for all intents and purposes this likely won't make much of a difference for interviews and web delivery (or even much higher end work).

The real magic is in the pre-amp and connectivity options that get passed to the camera. Juicelink is much better than Zoom or Tascam. At best, the GH5 audio unit will be on par with with the Juicelink, but most likely it will be far worse. It's primary purpose it seems is to serve as a slightly better pre-amp and enable higher bitrate recording, while providing convenient XLR in. It's also really great because of the convenience factor (no battery, no cable). I can get behind that!!

What I like more about the RM222 is it has a similar form factor but can be mounted anywhere - top hot shoe, or a cage, or even in a pocket. It works with any camera, now or later. It does the same thing, albiet requiring one 1/8 audio cable + a 9V or a lithium battery which can last up to 40 hours.

But what I like best is the most imporant thing: The superior pre-amp means a much lower noise floor and cleaner audio signal.

So, there's a few small compromises with battery and a cable, but that also leads to other benefits: mount anywhere, use with any camera, better sounding results (can't substantiate this until GH5 audio unit launches, but based on similar products and past results, a highly reasonable assumption).

The next step up, and ultimate solution, is the Sound Devices MixPre-D for $1000. But it's expensive, and a bit bulkier and heavier.
 
There is a cable isn't there?

I doubt the pre-amps will be far worse than the juicedLink. All preamps from these types of cameras/cheap recorders/cheap preamps are average. I'm not saying you can't get decent, usable sound out of them - you can. I've recorded wireless audio that went straight into the GH4, played through speakers the size of people in a theatre and it sounded fantastic. It was for a documentary I shot, and it was perfectly acceptable. It was perfectly acceptable to the audience partly because their standards aren't as high as if they'd been watching a Hollywood movie. Similarly, if a client is hiring you and they're OK with your GH4/5 package, I guarantee that person will be fine with sound recorded by any of these low level preamps. As long as the audio isn't "bad" then you're fine. That client's audio standards are probably lower than say the company that constantly pays for and listens to sound recordings from audio professionals.

My point is with sound at this level, the preamps are much of muchness. To me, the reasons to buy would come down to a usability/price balance.

Also, the ultimate solution is a proper video camera!
 
rob norton said:
…
Also, the ultimate solution is a proper video camera!
Click to expand...

When one doesn't have a proper video camera, the best solution is the be able to record audio directly into the camera, when needed (like in run-and-gun situations, or difficulties to sync in post), plus having a decent external audio recorder, when needed (for better audio quality).
 
Thanks Joshua_G but I understand the options. You could also not use them for sound at all and let them excel as low profile image makers. I can see the gh5/box being 2017's 5dii/zoom h4n combo and think an unprecedented amount of documentaries will be shot with the system. Right now I have a BMMCC, which is among the worst cameras ever made, audio wise. I record sound on a sound devices 702, one of the best sound recorders on the planet. I'll probably buy a GH5 at some point though. In a much earlier thread I said I wouldn't but a hassle free audio solution that provides good enough sound gets me over the line. I'd be comfortable shooting ANY event stuff with it, as well as talking heads and other documentary type shoots.
 
filmguy123 said:
So in the end, I've settled on Juicelink Riggy Micro for $330.

Also a helpful video here

Reason being, from what I understand, the difference between 16bit 44hz and 24bit 96 is virtually meaningless for most of us, unless doing very high end audio work or musical recordings, etc. There's some more room to easily correct audio problems in post @ 24bit, but for all intents and purposes this likely won't make much of a difference for interviews and web delivery (or even much higher end work).

The real magic is in the pre-amp and connectivity options that get passed to the camera. Juicelink is much better than Zoom or Tascam. At best, the GH5 audio unit will be on par with with the Juicelink, but most likely it will be far worse. It's primary purpose it seems is to serve as a slightly better pre-amp and enable higher bitrate recording, while providing convenient XLR in. It's also really great because of the convenience factor (no battery, no cable). I can get behind that!!

What I like more about the RM222 is it has a similar form factor but can be mounted anywhere - top hot shoe, or a cage, or even in a pocket. It works with any camera, now or later. It does the same thing, albiet requiring one 1/8 audio cable + a 9V or a lithium battery which can last up to 40 hours.

But what I like best is the most imporant thing: The superior pre-amp means a much lower noise floor and cleaner audio signal.

So, there's a few small compromises with battery and a cable, but that also leads to other benefits: mount anywhere, use with any camera, better sounding results (can't substantiate this until GH5 audio unit launches, but based on similar products and past results, a highly reasonable assumption).

The next step up, and ultimate solution, is the Sound Devices MixPre-D for $1000. But it's expensive, and a bit bulkier and heavier.
Click to expand...

Good call on the JuicedLink Riggy Micro. That's what I've used for several years. Set your in-camera gain as low as it goes (-12 on the GH4) and rely on the Riggy's great pre-amps.

I will say this...I don't know how many times I've forgotten to turn off the Riggy and run the battery down. For this reason alone, I'm definitely considering the Panasonic adapter for the GH5.
 
rob norton said:
I doubt the pre-amps will be far worse than the juicedLink. To me, the reasons to buy would come down to a usability/price balance.

Also, the ultimate solution is a proper video camera!
Click to expand...

I'm no audio pro, so we'll see. I do love the super convenient cableless design of the GH5 audio unit. For me it just came down to a (likely) better quality universal option, for cheaper. I can deal with a 40 hour 9V battery life and a 2 inch right angle 1/8 audio cable for that trade off! Regarding the proper video camera, it's not for cost that I don't have one (I used to). The flexibility and features afforded by working small and modular outweigh the downsides of a few needed accessories (for me).

joe12south said:
I don't know how many times I've forgotten to turn off the Riggy and run the battery down. For this reason alone, I'm definitely considering the Panasonic adapter for the GH5.
Click to expand...

Good tip! I need to get this habit into my workflow immediately. I guess that's one other benefit of the official GH5 audio unit :)
 
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