GH2 will _not_ included in Zacuto's 2011 Great Camera Shootout!?!

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I am going to do a shootout where I put a body cap on every camera, shoot at ISO200, and then crush the blacks in post. This will prove once and for all that every camera is equivalent :P Haha. Heck, I'll even prove that my footage doesn't even need 8-bits, we can go down to 1-bit with. :P
 
Maybe it has to also do with the fact that lots of short films, shows, narratives, documentaries, etc etc are being done with other cameras, while the GH1/GH13/GH2 has mostly been family videos or test shot of leaves, nature, and the like. I've seen some cool short films like "Day in the life of a bicycle" but nothing big like they did with House. Love my GH13. But I see where Zacuto is coming from. And no I'm not a Zacuto fanboy, they're sh*t is overpriced, although it does look quality.
 
hey Guys.. I just emailed Steve at Zacuto to see what he says directly. DVXuser is a powerful force online so it's only fitting to get the direct reasoning and see why or what's up with the Gh2 not being in the comparisons. Maybe he'll see how passionate people are and then who knows...
 
OK. First off, I have nothing to do with the actual test. Robert Primes ASC is running the test. I'm just making a GCS2011 which is a documentary about the test and it includes how the test was done, the test footage and reactions from DP's screening it in theatrical environments. The original idea was to only have one camera from each manufacturer. Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon. We have seen that the G2 performs like it's big brother the AF100 so we opted for it mainly because of the PL mount. At the end somehow a 1D and a 5D got put in the test. I really didn't want to do that but it was Bob's call, I probably won't include both of those cameras in my GCS2011. We really wanted all of the cameras to have a PL mounts so we could use the same lenses across the board which we did. The only exclusion to this was the Nikon which we couldn't get with a PL mount. We had to include it otherwise we would be excluding a major camera manufacturer. So we had to use a CP prime on it. I really wanted to limit the cameras to one per company and it was that way except with sony because the F35 and the new F3 are such different classes of cameras. You don't realize how hard and how long these test take and adding too many cameras makes it really hard to do. Frankly, I could have lived with 2 less cameras. But I will bring this up to Bob when we do phase two of the testing and maybe he'll agree to squeak it in. And I'm not in bed with anyone except my wife as someone mentioned I have some kind of relationship with Canon. I've made it very clear that as a director of 27 years, I could care less what camera I'm using, my DP Jens can make anyone of these cameras look amazing and while I find these tests interesting, I believe that what really matters are the people behind the camera, lighting and the content.

Steve Weiss
 
And there you have it people. A very salient and well thought out response from Zacuto... Too much conjecture and flaming before with wanton speculation. I also think that a lot can be conferred from the AF100 which is applicable to the Gh2....
 
zacuto said:
OK. First off, I have nothing to do with the actual test. Robert Primes ASC is running the test. I'm just making a GCS2011 which is a documentary about the test and it includes how the test was done, the test footage and reactions from DP's screening it in theatrical environments. The original idea was to only have one camera from each manufacturer. Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon. We have seen that the G2 performs like it's big brother the AF100 so we opted for it mainly because of the PL mount. At the end somehow a 1D and a 5D got put in the test. I really didn't want to do that but it was Bob's call, I probably won't include both of those cameras in my GCS2011. We really wanted all of the cameras to have a PL mounts so we could use the same lenses across the board which we did. The only exclusion to this was the Nikon which we couldn't get with a PL mount. We had to include it otherwise we would be excluding a major camera manufacturer. So we had to use a CP prime on it. I really wanted to limit the cameras to one per company and it was that way except with sony because the F35 and the new F3 are such different classes of cameras. You don't realize how hard and how long these test take and adding too many cameras makes it really hard to do. Frankly, I could have lived with 2 less cameras. But I will bring this up to Bob when we do phase two of the testing and maybe he'll agree to squeak it in. And I'm not in bed with anyone except my wife as someone mentioned I have some kind of relationship with Canon. I've made it very clear that as a director of 27 years, I could care less what camera I'm using, my DP Jens can make anyone of these cameras look amazing and while I find these tests interesting, I believe that what really matters are the people behind the camera, lighting and the content.

Steve Weiss
Click to expand...

The GH2 does not perform like the AF100. They are very different beasts and should be treated as such. Some like one, some like the other, but they are apples and oranges.
 
Peter J. DeCrescenzo said:
10. Sells for under $1,000 US.
9. Relatively large image sensor with a 1.18 crop compared to Academy 35mm cinema film.
8. Easily mounts pretty much any lens, including >$100K US prime cinema glass, either m43 directly or via relatively inexpensive adapters -- without any need to permanently modify the camera body.
7. Relatively high resolution built-in EVF (>1.5M dots!), obviating the need for an add-on LCD loupe or higher-res EVF in many/most cases.
6. Full raster 1920 x 1080 live HDMI output for semi-critical monitoring of most (but not all) shooting modes during preview & record.
5. Fairly clean compression in 1080p24 and 720p60/50 modes, generally not prone to artifacts when camera is appropriately stabilized.
4. Somewhat less moire artifacts compared other popular HD-DSLRs.
3. Awesome Extra Tele Conversion mode adds huge reach to every lens, with greatly reduced alias/moire & rolling shutter artifacts, and little added noise at lower ISOs. And stereo mic input w. level control, articulated LCD, full manual & auto controls, and ...
2. Relatively small, lightweight m43 camera body and native lens form factor. Never overheats!
1. Panasonic's professional products division delivered a suitcase full of cash to Zacuto to encourage them not to put the GH2 up against the AF100! :-)
Click to expand...

Peter, I see you didn't mention anything about high ISO's. That's really the GH1/GH2's Achilles heel, be it stills or video. And as such, it can't really be considered as a true competitor to many of the cameras in the shootout.
 
First thing that we must ask ourselfs is why do we need Zacuto shootout in current form at all.

What we need is completely independent tests using cameras provided to test by ordinal users.
And all tests and methodology must be also selected by community.
Plus community must have representatives with blocking vote that allows to reshoot the test if something looks wrong or error was made in their opinion.
This is that we really want. And we can really do it.
Plus we can return money spend on this selling Blu-Ray disks (writable ones) with big amount of raw stuff.

And not the Zacuto + Canon + Sony + Panasonic marketing fluff. We don't need this.

This is my position.
 
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Yeah I'm in agreement with everyone else that the gh2 looks more filmic and has a better image than the af100. I wonder what happen. I hope the gh2 doesn't some how get crippled for the future batches to off set what others are finding.

I'm also in agreement with vitally.
 
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zacuto said:
OK. First off, I have nothing to do with the actual test. Robert Primes ASC is running the test. I'm just making a GCS2011 which is a documentary about the test and it includes how the test was done, the test footage and reactions from DP's screening it in theatrical environments. The original idea was to only have one camera from each manufacturer. Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon. We have seen that the G2 performs like it's big brother the AF100 so we opted for it mainly because of the PL mount. At the end somehow a 1D and a 5D got put in the test. I really didn't want to do that but it was Bob's call, I probably won't include both of those cameras in my GCS2011. We really wanted all of the cameras to have a PL mounts so we could use the same lenses across the board which we did. The only exclusion to this was the Nikon which we couldn't get with a PL mount. We had to include it otherwise we would be excluding a major camera manufacturer. So we had to use a CP prime on it. I really wanted to limit the cameras to one per company and it was that way except with sony because the F35 and the new F3 are such different classes of cameras. You don't realize how hard and how long these test take and adding too many cameras makes it really hard to do. Frankly, I could have lived with 2 less cameras. But I will bring this up to Bob when we do phase two of the testing and maybe he'll agree to squeak it in. And I'm not in bed with anyone except my wife as someone mentioned I have some kind of relationship with Canon. I've made it very clear that as a director of 27 years, I could care less what camera I'm using, my DP Jens can make anyone of these cameras look amazing and while I find these tests interesting, I believe that what really matters are the people behind the camera, lighting and the content.

Steve Weiss
Click to expand...

Hi Steve: First let me say thank you for posting a reply here.

I think many of us are under the impression that Zacuto is the major sponsor of the Great Camera Shootout test series, aside from the cost/value of the cameras and other gear provided by the manufacturers used in the tests. If this impression is incorrect or could benefit from clarification, I for one would welcome hearing your response.

I'm confused by a few things mentioned in your post above:

There are _two_ pairs of cameras from _two_ manufacturers -- Sony and Canon, not just Canon -- included in the test. So why not include both the Panasonic AF100 and GH2?

Concerning lens mounts: Both the AF100 and GH2 are Micro Four Thirds cameras with identical m43 lens mounts. Both can be fitted with identical PL (and many other) lens mount adapters, without any modification of the camera whatsoever. So, unlike some cameras which must be mechanically & electronically modified to use most PL lenses, AF100 & GH2 cameras fitted for use with a PL lens are fully-functional AF100 & GH2 cameras, not irretrievably modified frankencameras.

Concerning similarities between the AF100 & GH2: Panasonic has stated numerous times that the only significant thing the AF100 & GH2 have in common is their m43 lens mount. Further, these cams are made by completely different divisions within Panasonic. And significantly, Panasonic sells them for vastly different list prices, via different marketing depts., to mostly different sets of customers. A strong case can be made that the AF100 & GH2 are at least as different from one another as two cams made by two different manufacturers.

Given the above, together with the info in my posts earlier in this thread ...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Shootout!-!&p=2247519&viewfull=1#post2247519
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Shootout!-!&p=2247590&viewfull=1#post2247590
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Shootout!-!&p=2247995&viewfull=1#post2247995

... I still don't understand why Mr. Robert Primes ASC and his staff decided not to include a GH2 in the 2011 Great Camera Shootout tests.

I hope you/they will consider reversing this decision. I'm sure you can see the value in demonstrating whatever good & bad capabilities the under-$1K US GH2 has to offer filmmakers of all types.

Cheers.
 
zacuto said:
OK. First off, I have nothing to do with the actual test. Robert Primes ASC is running the test. I'm just making a GCS2011 which is a documentary about the test and it includes how the test was done, the test footage and reactions from DP's screening it in theatrical environments. The original idea was to only have one camera from each manufacturer. Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon. We have seen that the G2 performs like it's big brother the AF100 so we opted for it mainly because of the PL mount. At the end somehow a 1D and a 5D got put in the test. I really didn't want to do that but it was Bob's call, I probably won't include both of those cameras in my GCS2011. We really wanted all of the cameras to have a PL mounts so we could use the same lenses across the board which we did. The only exclusion to this was the Nikon which we couldn't get with a PL mount. We had to include it otherwise we would be excluding a major camera manufacturer. So we had to use a CP prime on it. I really wanted to limit the cameras to one per company and it was that way except with sony because the F35 and the new F3 are such different classes of cameras. You don't realize how hard and how long these test take and adding too many cameras makes it really hard to do. Frankly, I could have lived with 2 less cameras. But I will bring this up to Bob when we do phase two of the testing and maybe he'll agree to squeak it in. And I'm not in bed with anyone except my wife as someone mentioned I have some kind of relationship with Canon. I've made it very clear that as a director of 27 years, I could care less what camera I'm using, my DP Jens can make anyone of these cameras look amazing and while I find these tests interesting, I believe that what really matters are the people behind the camera, lighting and the content.

Steve Weiss
Click to expand...

Howdie Steve,

First off, thanks for your wonderful programming and efforts to inform and educate!
Second, we'd love to see the Panasonic GH2 in your next shootout!

I'd also love to see a section of your next shootout entitled
"The UGLY"
where you devise controlled "Zacuto torture tests" to show how to push beyond each of the cameras existing limits,
so we can also learn about the shortcomings/limits of rolling shutter, aliasing, moire, codec issues, OIS and autofocus performance, real measured resolution, low light noise and banding issues, and allow the manufacturers to rethink their
full "1080p" label is "Good Enough" for prosumer use and potentially broadcast use. It's 2011, why not see if they can jump over the adult size hurdles you can throw their way this year, and retry the following year to see if they are even listening?

C'mon Steve, I know you and Jens can make'em sweat and help us learn...
 
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo said:
Hi Steve: First let me say thank you for posting a reply here.

I think many of us are under the impression that Zacuto is the major sponsor of the Great Camera Shootout test series, aside from the cost/value of the cameras and other gear provided by the manufacturers used in the tests. If this impression is incorrect or could benefit from clarification, I for one would welcome hearing your response.

I'm confused by a few things mentioned in your post above:

There are _two_ pairs of cameras from _two_ manufacturers -- Sony and Canon, not just Canon -- included in the test. So why not include both the Panasonic AF100 and GH2?

Concerning lens mounts: Both the AF100 and GH2 are Micro Four Thirds cameras with identical m43 lens mounts. Both can be fitted with identical PL (and many other) lens mount adapters, without any modification of the camera whatsoever. So, unlike some cameras which must be mechanically & electronically modified to use most PL lenses, AF100 & GH2 cameras fitted for use with a PL lens are fully-functional AF100 & GH2 cameras, not irretrievably modified frankencameras.

Concerning similarities between the AF100 & GH2: Panasonic has stated numerous times that the only significant thing the AF100 & GH2 have in common is their m43 lens mount. Further, these cams are made by completely different divisions within Panasonic. And significantly, Panasonic sells them for vastly different list prices, via different marketing depts., to mostly different sets of customers. A strong case can be made that the AF100 & GH2 are at least as different from one another as two cams made by two different manufacturers.

Given the above, together with the info in my posts earlier in this thread ...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Shootout!-!&p=2247519&viewfull=1#post2247519
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Shootout!-!&p=2247590&viewfull=1#post2247590
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Shootout!-!&p=2247995&viewfull=1#post2247995

... I still don't understand why Mr. Robert Primes ASC and his staff decided not to include a GH2 in the 2011 Great Camera Shootout tests.

I hope you/they will consider reversing this decision. I'm sure you can see the value in demonstrating whatever good & bad capabilities the under-$1K US GH2 has to offer filmmakers of all types.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I am quoting this just because it's a reasoned and polite response and should be the tone of this thread.
 
There are two schools of thought to this debate. One is that the AF100 is simply the GH2's big brother and including them both would be redundant.
The second is that the AF100 and GH2 are wildly different cameras, and if given the chance, the GH2 could be shown to outperform the AF100.

I tend to think the 'more filmic' image of the GH2 is due to increased grain and reduced dynamic range, but this could be wrong. If someone with access to both cameras could post some tests proving the difference between the cameras (a mini pre-shootout), this could be presented to Zacuto and Robert Primes as evidence they should be each included in the competition.
 
We just need someone reputable who do not have ANY relations with Panasonic, be it consumer or professional departments.
If he'll be located in some large place like NY or LA, it won't be problem to find members who'll come this their cameras.
I also want to see footage shot by three cameras residing on one bracket and with identical parameters (of course it also require special later footage editing to make it esear to see differencies).

As for petitions - they don't work anyway.
 
David W. Jones said:
For crying out loud! What a bunch of whiners. Do you need to have the GH2 included in a shoot out to validate your camera purchase? Honestly would you all run out and purchase an Alexa if the shoot out indicated it was the best camera? Doubtful.

Come on, they are going to the industry with these results to prove how good dslr can be, in fact apart from af100 the results will be the same as last time? so to not include the GH2 is a little bit prejudice, especially as everybody knows its made the bigggest step-up since last time, zacuto know this and so does everyone else, so to go to the industry and not include the class leader is a bit like burying your head in the sand. Basically your now whinging that we are calling a little bit of fowl play, thats all!

I don't know Steve and have no interest in Zacuto, except in owning a couple of their rail mounts. But he offers up his thoughts, which are also my thoughts... it's not the camera, it's the person behind the camera! My advice take it or leave it, forget about shoot outs, and start shooting!

well in that case why have zacuto bothered to do this, of course it all about you but you need the equipment as well yes?

One last thought... Personal insults on these boards need to stop!
You really show your class when you start calling people bald fascist and such.

yes that was a little out of order for sure.
Click to expand...
 
Here's the part you don't understand about the test and I'm going to repost a message I put on REDuser. The reason Zacuto has nothing to do with the picking of the cameras is so that nobody would say that we had something to do with the results or outcome. We did not. Please read this to understand more about the test. By the way, there was a representative from Panasonic at the test. All manufacturers were invited to the test and I believe that only Panasonic showed up. Nobody is trying to exclude any camera for any reason. In Sony's case the difference between the F35 and the F3 is so different that an exception had to be made. That is not the same difference between the AF100 and the G2. Having too many cameras just makes these tests impossible to do. Again we are under the impression that the G2 would perform as well as the AF100 picture wise so you will see the results and it will be even more impressive.

The Great Camera Shootout 2010 was a three part web series documenting DSLR's and how they compared with 35mm Film.

It's also been brought up that Zacuto could have some kind of bias to these tests because I'm an equipment maker. This is not true. I actually have three different companies, Zacuto rentals, Zacuto films & Zacuto USA. Zacuto films has its own 6 man staff that creates all of Zacuto's original programming like FilmFellas, Critics, The Great Camera Shootout and our new series coming called BTS. We are also working on a completely narrative drama show that we hope to compete with television except it will only be available on the web. The Great Camera Shootout 2010 was the only web show to win an Midwest Emmy and we are very proud of that. We are filmmakers first and equipment makers second. Most people don't know that I have been directing mostly corporate and commercial work since 1983 with Jens as my DP, I've actually only been in the products business since 2005. Jens and I, and our various production companies have created over 600 programs/videos. The Irony about the whole testing thing for me is that I personally am not so hung up on what camera I use. I am a huge believer in it's all about the people you have behind the camera, the script, the edit that makes for great films, but that's a different story. My documentary here is the process, trials and tribulations, and the actual evaluation of the cameras that make up The Great Camera Shootout 2011.

Now the followup that everyone has been asking me for. The Great Camera Shootout 2011 (GCS2011) is currently in production and it's purpose is to showcase digital cinema cameras. The GCS2011 is a documentary film of the Single Chip Camera Evaluation (SCCE) conducted by Robert Primes ASC and a full staff of scientists, engineers & digital specialists, almost 40 people in total working on the SCCE. Zacuto has nothing to do whatsoever with the administering of the SCCE. We even went so far as to only use competitors equipment on the cameras and excluded using any Zacuto gear in the SCCE. Zacuto was the impetus behind the SCCE, although its sole purpose is to create a documentary about the SCCE which it calls The Great Camera Shootout 2011 that will be a 3 part web series.

We did ask all of the camera manufactures to send a representative so that they could not say that we used their camera improperly. We also asked RED for the use of an Epic but was told they were all being used. Believe me I would have loved to have had and Epic in this test but I understand that they are in demand. My tests have never been a winner take all test. We've done four of these tests and the purpose is just to see how various cameras perform in different types of testing situations, like latitude, highlights, lowlight, resolution, color, etc. I believe no camera is right for every situation. The problem is you have people buying cameras where we used to rent them and everyone is looking for the perfect camera. In the old days 1980's/90's before we started any project we would have a production meeting to decide what was the right camera for the job. I wouldn't want to be running in combat with a huge camera and I wouldn't want a 35mm film camera in a super low light situation. So that's why this test is really a comparison and not really a test.

The SCCE will be the most scientific camera comparison to date testing these cameras: 35mm film, Arri Alexa, Weiscam, Sony F35, Phantom, RED One MX, Sony F3, Panasonic AF100, Canon 5D, 1D and Nikon D7000. The SCCE also did some testing on the new ACES protocol. Phase one was a three day shoot on the Mole Richardson stages and ended on February 2nd, 2011. What I experienced documenting this SCCE was the most professional non biased testing I've ever seen in my life. Bob and his crew were so professional, dedicated and planned, nothing was left to chance or done haphazard. Phase one was the more scientific portion of the testing phase with 5 different testing stations shooting 12 different tests. A back lit set of latitude tests, charts and colors. A front lit set of resolution charts, colors charts shot in different color temperature lights. A motion test that was created and built by Clairmont Camera (high speed spinning wheels with lines on them) to test for motion artifacts as well as a strobe light test. A beautiful still life setup stylized with different colors and textures. A skin tone color test with three people of various skin tones ranging from black to medium to pale white all in the same frame. We recorded all of this on camera native formats as well as S.Two, OB1 and Codex. All together there were approximately 1000 shots from all of these tests and formats. Phase two, TBD will be actual scenes, challanging ones, similar to the ones in The Great Camera Shootout 2010. After the SCCE is wrapped and edited there will be video recorded and non-recorded screenings in LA, possibly NY and 15 recorded screenings in the Zacuto theater in the Zacuto booth at NAB. Viewers will watch the SCCE in 2 & possibly 4K resolutions and comment on what they are seeing. Many ASC DP's, producers and directors will be watching this and commenting on what they saw whilst seeing it projected. This will give the web viewer the opportunity to hear from experts in the field as they just watched it on the cinema screen. As the Director of the GCS2011, it's the closest way I can think of to give the web viewers the cinema experience. All of this material will be edited into 3 30 minute webisodes that will make up The Great Camera Shootout 2011 and will premiere on the Zacuto website as well as other websites in June 2011. Producers: Jens Bogehegn, Steve Weiss, Scott Lynch & Daniel Skubal. Directed by: Steve Weiss

This test will be fair and unbiased and I think you will really enjoy both the SCCE when it comes out in April and the GCS2011 when it comes out in June
Here you can see the crew: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/313214/Single Chip Evaluation Crew Photo 2011.jpg
Steve Weiss
 
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Steve, thank you for taking the time to drop by and explain some more details of the test.

As for some of the other replies, with a heavy heart this is the first time I have woken up to say I am embarrassed to be a DVXuser today.
 
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