GH1 vs SD5 on PS3

Ozpeter

Well-known member
I realise that this is not directly relevant to filmmaking but just to add more info to assist in the overall analysis of what's good or bad about the the GH1, here's my first impressions comparing a Panasonic SD5 with the GH1 - the SD5 is an AVCHD device with a similar bit rate to the GH1. (Oops, no, it's rated at only 13Mbps CBR).

Sorry, words only at this point rather than samples.

I did a simple test, recording the passing of a couple of cars past my house, then panning a bit, slowly. I used the 1080 and then 720 settings of the GH1 then the 1080 setting of the SD5, using the same card.

It's a suburban street - opposite is a handy brick wall, tiled roofs, trees and shrubs, houses, and nearby are shrubs with fine foliage in my front yard.

I inserted the card into my PS3 (using an adaptor) and displayed the result on a 42" Bravia TV.

My comments -

1080 from the GH1 is too jerky for my taste if there's fast motion (passing cars) or other than snail-like panning. Alternate frames show the car at a certain position, next frame is a re-interpretation of that frame (some reconstruction of the 'muddied' image of the wall that the car is passing across, for instance), then the next frame has the car at a new position, then the next frame another reinterpretation, etc. I guess this is the 25fps (PAL) output from the sensor, with the codec trying to make a better job of the reinterpretation of the previous frame in between the 50fps that's recorded. There are dropped frames leading to even more jerky motion.

The SD5 version is much smoother with the passing cars and the panning. No dropped frames (on the same card).

The 720 setting of the GH1 gives the kind of smoothness that the SD5 provides, but (as with the 1080 setting) almost-black becomes black (eg in the darker parts of the trees) while the SD5 continues to provide some detail there. Where the very fine foreground foliage is in the shot, the SD5 (1080) does a better job of reproducing it than the GH1 in either setting - but, the GH1 was set to a wider angle than the SD5 so I need to retest that aspect with a similar field of view for fair comparison.

The PS3 does not play the GH1 720 footage so smoothly if I play the actual file. If I play the AVCHD folder, it seems like the PS3 gets additional info from elsewhere in the folder structure and interprets it correctly. Consequently, I'd question whether the actual video files will always work correctly if downloaded from the net without the whole AVCHD structure.

Last night I wandered round the house (lit by a mixture of fluorescent and halogen lights) with the GH1 and then the SD5. Until I replayed the result on the big TV via the PS3, just judging by the SD5 monitor there wasn't much difference. But replayed properly, it was chalk and cheese - the GH1 footage was perfectly usable whereas noise seriously degraded the SD5 to the point of unpleasantness.

I guess overall I'd endorse what others have said here - for low/lower light, and for shallow depth of field, the GH1 is pretty impressive. In full light, with full HD definition, I wouldn't dream of using the GH1 in preference to the SD5 unless there was very little movement in the shot and no panning or unless I really had to have shallow DOF. Different tools for different jobs.

My guess at the problem with GH1 full HD is this. Maybe AVCHD needs a lot of incoming temporal data from the sensor to be effective. Maybe the 25fps from the GH1 sensor in full HD is not enough for it to work with. I would also guess that the sensor output is built right into its design and will not be fixable via a firmware update. The GH2 may boast yet another iteration of the sensor and perhaps the engine too - then it might work properly for full HD.
 
1080 from the GH1 is too jerky for my taste if there's fast motion (passing cars) or other than snail-like panning.
because its 25p :P and thats normal.
its the mud that is the problem and has been talked about for the past several months.
 
Update for those not yawning - general stuttery effect I observed is clearly down to user error (lack of appropriate shutter speed setting) but dropped / skipped frames problem remains in FHD - makes it unusable if there is any motion (and a movie with no motion is a photo). 720 is ok. Question is, if the dropped / skipped frame problem in FHD is only affecting PAL versions, is it a fault which will never be fixed, or a bug that firmware might fix in due course? Do I take it back or not? Hmmm.
 
I have to admit that the more time I spend with this GH1, the more I realise that what you see does very much depend on how you see it - whether playing the footage direct off the card via a PS3 (skippy and stuttery), or via an AVCHD DVD created by Nero (which provides for simple editing without recompressing, it just passes 1080 straight through at high speed), or via Premiere Elements 7 to AVCHD DVD (via tsMuxeR and ImgBurn) at which point the dropped frames seem to disappear, or via direct playback (which again seems to undrop the frames).

So my suggestion to anyone else who is concerned over stuttering and dropped frames, is to explore carefully the various playback alternatives, especially the HDMI or even composite out options, before concluding that there's really a problem.

It's a keeper.
 
So my suggestion to anyone else who is concerned over stuttering and dropped frames, is to explore carefully the various playback alternatives, especially the HDMI or even composite out options, before concluding that there's really a problem.

It's a keeper.

I've been saying this for awhile. Why don't people hook this HDMI out to a real HDTV and playback recorded footage from the camera via the HDMI 1080 signal. This will tell you a lot about the GH1!
 
When I play GH1 footage through my 35 year old RCA tv it looks really blurry and the colours bleed! How can panasonic cripple the camera like that? It should be backwards compatible. I don't even think I'm getting real HD.
 
I've been saying this for awhile. Why don't people hook this HDMI out to a real HDTV and playback recorded footage from the camera via the HDMI 1080 signal. This will tell you a lot about the GH1!

Unfortunately it's not that easy. I only use HDMI connections between my BD player, the GH1 and any other equipment I have hooked up to my Pioneer plasma. But that alone doesn't eliminate the stutter with 1080 24p. The Pioneer even has modes to reduce this, but it doesn't 'cure' it.

On the other hand 720p looks great, and 1080 24p looks very good in many scenes with little movement. The resolution in this mode is truly amazing on a 60" Kuro.
 
When I play GH1 footage through my 35 year old RCA tv it looks really blurry and the colours bleed! How can panasonic cripple the camera like that? It should be backwards compatible. I don't even think I'm getting real HD.

There's a switch on the back of your RCA that's labeled "HD", you probably didn't switch it. :D
 
Unfortunately it's not that easy. I only use HDMI connections between my BD player, the GH1 and any other equipment I have hooked up to my Pioneer plasma. But that alone doesn't eliminate the stutter with 1080 24p. The Pioneer even has modes to reduce this, but it doesn't 'cure' it.
It's awesome that people simply don't get what 24p means :violin:
 
Yeah, it's funny - if you think of all the possibilities in the workflow to mess up the 1080p24 I can really understand the disappointment of many here (I am talking of the NTSC model). I have been struggling as well for almost two weeks now until I got all the aspects right to finally display 1080p24 properly.

Problem is, that if you don't have a dedicated device for displaying 24p it will always be jittery, stuttery, and what ever.

(1) computer monitors usually go with 60Hz - no way to display 24p correctly without stutter
(2) direct HDMI playback from the camera of the 1080i60 wrapper (containing 1080p24) is jittery as well (how should your TV device know that this stream needs pulldown?)
(3) THE ONLY WAY to get correct display of 1080p23.98 (to be accurate) is to do pulldown in the post, cut your clips (in a timeline with 1080p23.98 setting, NOT 1080p24 - this leads to ghosting), render the clips to whatever format you like, set your device which plays the film (e.g. computer or mediaplayer via HDMI) manually to 1080p24 and make shure your flatscreen is capable of doing 1080p24 as well.

If you get that right, its just amazing.

I've finally figured out for me how it works and I am absolutely amazed about this camera - every time I play my GH1 1080p24 films on my Panasonic Plasma I am having the "wow" effect - fluid motion, crisp sharpness, colour separation, ... great stuff!

But there is a terrible lot which can go wrong till you finally view your stuff.

I think similar stuff holds true for the PAL model, having the 1080i50 wrapper containing 1080p25 - making shure the devices you display your film with are running 50Hz (e.g. your computer monitor won't!!). The difference should be if you view directly via HDMI from your camera, this should be fine, although maybe not the highest quality, as your TV device would think (as this is 1080i50) the stream needs deinterlacing. Depending on your TV this might cost you some quality.

Hence, don't be frustrated, keep going. Figure it out for you - it's worth the effort.


best regards, Gunther
 
On the subject of playback - tonight I took some rough movie shots of some nephews playing 'speed chess' at night in a room with domestic halogen lighting, and replayed it with a 'WDTV' device I have (via a card reader), hooked up to a computer LCD monitor, and then to a 42" Bravia - and it played the 1080 footage just fine, with no more judder/stutter than one might expect to see, on the monitor and on the TV.

I'll do some more tests perhaps tomorrow with 720 and more demanding motion.

Chief problem with the WDTV device is that it plays the files in an odd order and with a pause between each, but it's easier to pop the SD card into a reader and press 'play' on a remote than to hook up a fiddly mini HDMI cable to the camera and use the on-camera playback controls.

I found the quality of the video remarkable given the low light. The full auto dummy setting gave better results than the Creative Movie mode (shutter priority, 50th, ISO 800) - in my hands - clearly I need to work on getting better non-auto results.

Link to WDTV - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8993217&type=product&id=1218008588808
 
We have seen lots of fluid 1080p footage. 720 is definitely more user friendly and harder to screw up but the same can be said about 720 on a HVX or HPX. Admittedly it would be nice if the 1080p mode was a bit more robust but I think that user error comes into play more than a lot of people realize.

I think I speak for most indie filmmakers when I say the codecs and pulldowns and interlacing is ALWAYS a headache with a new camera - no matter what camera you shoot with. Until you establish the workflow that gives you the best results, its a lot of trial and error.
 
We have seen lots of fluid 1080p footage. 720 is definitely more user friendly and harder to screw up but the same can be said about 720 on a HVX or HPX. Admittedly it would be nice if the 1080p mode was a bit more robust but I think that user error comes into play more than a lot of people realize.

I think I speak for most indie filmmakers when I say the codecs and pulldowns and interlacing is ALWAYS a headache with a new camera - no matter what camera you shoot with. Until you establish the workflow that gives you the best results, its a lot of trial and error.

For whatever reason, the fluidity of the 1080p motion always looks better on a computer monitor. Try to put that same footage on a large screen HDTV...not so fluid. I've seen this repeatedly (as has anyone else I've shown it to) even with Pioneer plasmas that have a number of 'cinema' modes.

I would be quite happy with the motion smoothness on my HDTV if it looked the same way as it does on my 22" computer monitor. For now 720p fits the bill quite nicely.
 
For whatever reason, the fluidity of the 1080p motion always looks better on a computer monitor. Try to put that same footage on a large screen HDTV...not so fluid. I've seen this repeatedly (as has anyone else I've shown it to) even with Pioneer plasmas that have a number of 'cinema' modes.

I would be quite happy with the motion smoothness on my HDTV if it looked the same way as it does on my 22" computer monitor. For now 720p fits the bill quite nicely.

My computer monitor is a 52 inch HDTV. Seen lots of full HD footage on it at 24p, the good stuff looks like it could be playing from a blu ray DVD. If you're having issues with all 1080 24p footage, there is something wrong in your setup. I can admit to having seen lots of clips with improper pulldown removal (I think a lot of pal users are using an NTSC workflow) or too high of a shutter speed that didn't look perfect on this screen, but if you aren't seeing anything that looks fluid at 1080p it seems to me like something else at play.

I haven't tried through a PS3, everthing I watch is played directly from my desktop computer to a 52 inch Viera plasma tv through HDMI.

Another factor could just be 'in your head' - we all percieve refresh rates in a slightly different way and our perception of smoothness in framerate depends on the contrast in the scene as well as numerous other factors.
 
Another thing to consider is that the mud is quantitatively worse in 1080 mode and camera shake would also be more annoying to watch with greater detail. Does it still look stutter when there is smooth camera movements?
 
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