GH1 vs Red One vs Canon 5D Mk II footage comparison shoot out!

TimurCivan said:
Its such a monumental waste of time. it always gives me a headache, and everythign looks out of focus. I cant even enjoy good cinematography through it....
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I'm totally with you - 3D just constantly brings me out of the story and I just sit there checking out how it really doesn't look anywhere close to how we humans perceive reality.
 
3D is there to sell digital projectors to theatres to decrease the studio's costs...i mean this new wave of digital 3d.
 
Martti Ekstrand said:
For a young filmmaker trying to hone his/hers skills it's better to own a camera to practice and testing out ideas than renting it and stressed and nervously trying to use to the max for the few days it can be afforded. And now GH1 allows for practice full out cinematic DOF, learning both the language that comes with it and the techniques of focus pulling.
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Sorry, Timur, I'm 100% with these guys on this one. Everyone starting out should have a GH1 or something like it. Sometimes you just have to have it around, especially for learning.

When you've got your skills, and you're getting hired, then you don't need this stuff anymore. But for guys who aren't at that level yet, owning the product makes a zillion times more sense.
 
Why do you need to own a camera?
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I know somebody in my area who owns a Red One and tells me that that was the best camera investment he ever made. Done a lot of stuff with it so far. Well, that same guy, who owns at least a $30K camera and all, made a $700.00 30 secs spanish commercial spot for my friend's two clothing stores in this neighborhood. And he did it first because he had the cam and second because he wanted to. If you own your own equipment you can do whatever you want, whenever you want to. It is that simple.
 
Barry, surely you didn't shoot "Unawakening" entirely at f1.4 though, did you? or even mostly? Unless, the goal during the shoot was going for shallowest DOF you could...

at the same fstop range, they'll be the same. And, your average shot isn't going to be shot at f1.4. Though, it is certainly an advantage having that extra light, let's do apples to apples... 2500 dollar interchangeable 2/3" scarlet vs. hpx300 interchangeable...

Later,
Jason
 
I agree with Ramsey but the problem is gh1 and 5dii are the first cameras to "snake charm" the intended scarlet market with the no adapter shallow dof look and will keep many from making the upgrade down the road especially due to the size and ease. However it will be a great cam and I'll probably buy one or two if they come in at $3k.
 
Kholi said:
And in comparison to consumers? How many GH-1's or MKii's were actually sold to Filmmakers versus Photographers and People looking for a Cheap DSLR, not even considering video?

Especially the MKii.
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But does that matter? A sale is a sale. I'm talking about market acceptance.

The Red One was marketed to a very specialized niche, and it slayed in that niche. The Scarlet was to be marketed to the world. I don't think the world'll be up for it. I think there's a niche, a bigger niche than for the Red One, of course, but ... price point will play a huge factor in it.

Plus, there's no denying that a worldwide network of dealers, a worldwide support system, all that stuff will weigh heavily on the mind of a potential buyer.

What I'm saying is: sure, Kholi, you'll sell your 5D and your two GH1's to get a Scarlet at $10k. I probably would too. But how many guys out there are like I expect commanderspike was: guys who might have been thinking "maybe I'll sell my car, I'll sell my blood, I'll cash-advance my credit card, and I'll skip rent for a couple of months in order to afford a Scarlet" who are now saying "bah, why bother, I've got all I need at $1500"?

I'm not, at any point, saying the Scarlet won't be better than these other tools. I'm just acknowledging that rarely has "better" been the defining factor for marketplace success. Convenience and price are always bigger factors. And if the Scarlet proves to be more inconvenient to work with (due to raw workflow) and costs more... that's not a recipe for the "revolution" that we were expecting when it was first announced.

I remain a big fan of the Scarlet and I want to see it be awesome. I'm just having trouble reconciling where the previously-announced Scarlet fits in, in today's world.
 
barry_green said:
but does that matter? A sale is a sale. I'm talking about market acceptance.

The red one was marketed to a very specialized niche, and it slayed in that niche. The scarlet was to be marketed to the world. I don't think the world'll be up for it. I think there's a niche, a bigger niche than for the red one, of course, but ... Price point will play a huge factor in it.

Plus, there's no denying that a worldwide network of dealers, a worldwide support system, all that stuff will weigh heavily on the mind of a potential buyer.

What i'm saying is: Sure, kholi, you'll sell your 5d and your two gh1's to get a scarlet at $10k. I probably would too. But how many guys out there are like i expect commanderspike was: Guys who might have been thinking "maybe i'll sell my car, i'll sell my blood, i'll cash-advance my credit card, and i'll skip rent for a couple of months in order to afford a scarlet" who are now saying "bah, why bother, i've got all i need at $1500"?

I'm not, at any point, saying the scarlet won't be better than these other tools. I'm just acknowledging that rarely has "better" been the defining factor for marketplace success. Convenience and price are always bigger factors. And if the scarlet proves to be more inconvenient to work with (due to raw workflow) and costs more... That's not a recipe for the "revolution" that we were expecting when it was first announced.

I remain a big fan of the scarlet and i want to see it be awesome. I'm just having trouble reconciling where the previously-announced scarlet fits in, in today's world.
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Okay FINE THEN. Brb going to stand in the corner and pout.
 
I can see that point, Chip for sure... but, I've also read a lot of folks who bought these cams now to use as a stop gap until scarlet comes along and gives them the same ballpark in price with all the manual controls, more robust codec, etc, etc and higher rez. And, in the meantime, they are making money off of it to pay for their intended future purpose. Then, there are the folks who buy every next cam that comes out and offers a new feature that the previous didn't... Well, they'll probably end up wanting to buy into scarlet as well if it delivers.

And, then... yes, there will be folks who won't need/want the additional features, and more professional toolset, geared towards the cinema market that Scarlet offers, so they'll save a grand and stick with the gh1 or whatever.

later,
Jason
 
Jason Ramsey said:
Barry, surely you didn't shoot "Unawakening" entirely at f1.4 though, did you? or even mostly? Unless, the goal during the shoot was going for shallowest DOF you could...

at the same fstop range, they'll be the same. And, your average shot isn't going to be shot at f1.4. Though, it is certainly an advantage having that extra light, let's do apples to apples... 2500 dollar interchangeable 2/3" scarlet vs. hpx300 interchangeable...

Later,
Jason
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Macgregor shot it, I don't know what stop he spent most of his time at.

Yes, at 2.8 or deeper, they'd be the same. But that's why devices like the Pro35 and the Letus and Brevis and Greek relay lens all exist -- because 2/3" DOF isn't cinema DOF. Nowhere near it in most circumstances, and folks want cinema DOF, so they're spending $3,500 to $6,000 just on a relay lens, and then another $1500 to $4500 for an adapter.

Apples to apples, that's what I'm talking about. I think a lot of people will be tempted to go with the $800 apple versus the $2500 apple. A Scarlet can't be considered a serious competitor to something like the HPX500, unless you're talking about a specific niche -- and that niche certainly won't be weddings, events, sports, news, ENG, live production, or any of the other million things that a video camera does that a dedicated cine camera doesn't.

A configured Scarlet, with stock lens, is listed on Red's site for $3,750. That's a massive huge step up from a configured GH1 at $1500. And the GH1's going to have the cinema DOF that folks are looking for, and for $100 you can buy a lens and mount adapter and put on a 1.4 and get that crazy shallow cinema look. Not possible on the Scarlet unless you go for the bigger frame one, which is $7,500.

Undoubtedly the Scarlet will have lots of advantages (not the least of which is 120fps). What I'm wondering is -- will that be enough to sway the buyers? Or will the Scarlet become the product that they rent, when they want those special shots?
 
Don't forget scarlet spec offers a proposed way to avoid raw workflow for the consumers by offering internal debayering and FF1080p out in the form of an rgb redcode
 
Barry_Green said:
Undoubtedly the Scarlet will have lots of advantages (not the least of which is 120fps). What I'm wondering is -- will that be enough to sway the buyers? Or will the Scarlet become the product that they rent, when they want those special shots?
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I got cookies and juice and am better now. But you're right. There's no arguing that cost is going to weigh in heavily this time around. Hmmm. It just bugs me that it's unlikely we'll get an image minus all the junk unless we bet on someone or some entity that has experience with it.

And, chances are, I might be thinking twice by the time that comes around, considering how much I know the Mkii and GH-1 work out here now.
 
Don't forget scarlet spec offers a proposed way to avoid raw workflow for the consumers by offering internal debayering and FF1080p out in the form of an rgb redcode
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That is the kind of thing it'll need. With that, it removes a whole lot of the issues that I'm concerned about.

Still, I want to see it implemented. It never got implemented in the Red One, so... let's see it make it in there. If it does, and it's a high-quality downsample, that will be huge for the Scarlet.
 
again, GH1 is interchangeable though. So, 2500 for interchangeable SCarlet... slap a 1.4 on it... Not as shallow as gh1... but, then it becomes a question of priorities... If it came down to gh1 and interchangeable scarlet as a choice... I can think of a whole host of features and functions (that used to be considered required elements in our cameras) that will outweigh that diff. in DOF. but, I'm only one person :)

later,
Jason
 
Kholi said:
It just bugs me that it's unlikely we'll get an image minus all the junk unless we bet on someone or some entity that has experience with it.
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I want that bad... I hate long-GoP. I hate "mud" and not knowing when the codec might bite you. I'd definitely be down for some good-quality intraframe RedCode.

And, chances are, I might be thinking twice by the time that comes around, considering how much I know the Mkii and GH-1 work out here now.
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Well, see, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. You recognize, as I'm trying to, that it isn't about what *we want*, it's about what's gonna happen. You went on record as "hating" your HPX170, but you stuck with it because it rented all the time, for more than the Red One kit did! Doesn't matter whether you agree with it or you think people are being smart or dumb, what mattered is that's what the market was asking for, so you had to give it to them.

I'm looking at how the market is likely to play out. And my bet is: the existing announced Scarlets will have nowhere near the impact, on today's market, as they would have had two years ago when announced. So I'm very curious to see what they're redesigning. I've thrown out a few ideas of what I think it'd take to make it be the marketbeater it was originally intended to be, but I don't presume for a moment to second-guess what the guys at Red will actually come up with!
 
I disagree. 3D is there to raise ticket prices.
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And to stop piracy. Especially when a movie is copied off the screen at a theater. I don't know how 3D would play on Blueray but the pirates would then have to sell the glasses along with the illegal DVDs.
 
Jason Ramsey said:
too fast... I was typing my first post in this thread before the "unawakening" post you just quoted, and by the time I had finished, there were two new pages...

geez... too fast for me..

Later,
Jason
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The post I was referring to you on was a page before the one that happened to go above my post :)
 
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