GH1 does not have ALC

Ozpeter

Well-known member
In the firmware hack thread I see repeated references to the need to disable ALC on sound.

If the GH1 has ALC, I'll eat my hat. It does have a limiter, which is an entirely different thing.

An ALC circuit is designed to increase gain in the presence of low levels of audio, and reduce it in the presence of high levels of audio, usually relatively slowly. So if you are recording in a quiet park, and a dog barks right next to you, the recorded level drops suddenly, then over several seconds it increases until the sounds of birds or whatever are very loud. If there was a lawnmower operating nearby the gain would not be raised so much as it recovered.

A limiter circuit does not attempt to increase gain. It simply briefly lowers the gain when the incoming level exceeds a certain figure. So in the example above, the sounds of nature would be heard at a lower level than if an AGC circuit was operating, and when the dog barked, the level would drop very quickly and recover very quickly, but would not be artificially raised above the normal, and the lawnmower would not cause the level to be lowered unless it was loud enough to trigger the limiter circuit.

Listening to GH1 audio and examining the waveforms I'm certain that it's a limiter not an AGC. It wouldn't be too hard to prove this with suitable test tones and if anyone thinks I'm wrong I'll do the test.

The way to defeat the limiter is to record using an externally controlled audio source (eg a mixer with a mic-level output) and set the level low enough that the limiter does not operate. That might mean recording with a level perhaps 10dB or even 12dB below the optimum, which might then expose the inherent noise levels of the GH1 audio system.

However, if using a software hack the limiter was disabled, but no level control was added, there would be no change to the way the GH1 audio sounds when recording "normal" levels of audio, but any excessive peaks would be clipped and distorted (instead of limited, as at present).

If an audio level control was provided as well as a limiter disabler, then it might be possible to control the level such that noise was avoided and clipping also avoided, but you'd probably have to be working with quite predictable audio levels with a narrow dynamic range.

All in all, I suspect that even if the firmware hack project was successful in disabling the limiter and providing level control, it would still be a poor substitute for an external low noise audio system synced to the GH1 picture in post production.
 
...it would still be a poor substitute for an external low noise audio system synced to the GH1 picture in post production.


That's really all that needs to be said. ;)

I figure, if someone is using the on-board mic and audio recording, then they're probably not shooting something that requires audio that needs to be manually monitored. Home videos, weddings, etc, where wildly varying audio levels and no sound checks and no audio guys means auto gain controls and limiters are pretty helpful.

I can't possibly imagine why a so-called film-maker would be concerned with the on-board audio for anything other than a sync track. Especially considering how dirt cheap quality digital recorders are now, and with amazing software like PluralEyes.

As for the GH1 not having AGC but only a limiter, I'm not sure. I do know that it doesn't crank up the level to the point of being noisy when recording a low level, seems pretty level, and if it does have a limiter than it doesn't prevent the crappy built in mic from easily being over-driven and distorting really badly.
 
It needs careful investigation and inspection.
In fact most gains is not in AGC disabling, but changing analog and digital amplifier levels for used CODEC.
And firstly, we must know CODEC used.
In reality most digital recorders use same CODECS and even same opamps for their inputs.
Yes, current implementations are quite crippled.
But hardware already allow to get good results with external microphones.
 
I agree with Ozpeter, the GH1 has a limiter and not an ALC. What the GH1 has is an extremely sensitive mic input that needs to be attenuated (up to 40dB with mic-level sources) no matter what mic or audio mixer (mic-level output) you use.

I've done extensive testing on this with various mics, mixers and attenuators. I did one test back in February using a Shure SM57 handheld mic directly connected to the GH1 and then adding an adjustable attenuator to the mic and measuring the peak and background noise dB levels and the change in ratio between the two.

What I found is that with no attenuator the audio was peaking at -3dB and the background noise was at -25dB. Adding 25dB of attenuation resulted in a peak level drop to only -10dB (7dB change) but a background noise level of -43dB (18dB change). Draw your own conclusions, but to me those numbers say that its a limiter and not an ALC. It also shows how hard the audio level from the mic was hitting the limiter without using the attenuator.

I did test an audio mixer output also and that needed 40dB of attenuation at its mic-level output (not line-level - I know what I'm doing here) to then input into the GH1's mic-level input. Once the level from a mic or mixer is properly attenuated, I found the audio quality from the GH1 to be very clean even if you needed to raise it back up 5dB or so in the timeline.

I did a test the other day with a Sennheiser ME-64 cardioid mic in a room with the TV on and was recording someone talking in that room. Without attenuation the mic and TV were both heard clearly in the room even though I was pointing the mic towards the person speaking and the TV was behind the mic. Once I added a 30dB attenuator to the mic the TV noise level shot way down compared to the person speaking.

The other thing is that the "limiter" in the GH1 altered the way the voice sounded without the attenuator which makes it sound over-processed. You definitely don't want the limiter in the GH1 to "color" your audio by it doing too much work to where it sounds unnatural. All you want the GH1 limiter to do is prevent distortion.

Here is a screen grab from that test I did back in February. I did the first 4 tests with a Shure SM57 handheld cardioid mic and the 5th test with a Electro-Voice RE50 handheld omni-directional mic just to double-check my results with the SM57. The RE-50 was a little less sensitive than the SM57 but the results were basically the same.

Randy
 

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OK. Thanks.

Is it possible to generate white noise, route it to mixer, use mixer as attenuator and output resulted signal to GH1 mic input.
It'll be easear to spot.
And we could know some timing as you can turn knob with various rates and look at recorded signal.
So, I want completely controlled noise recording, not real recording.
 
i have to agree with swyzlstyx , seems a lot of people here SEE and don't HEAR when thinking about making movies in that they go for a "look" they want - lens use, fps, colour correction ( seriously overused and abused by so many people i think) ect yet less focus is on the sound design.. which is fair enough.

I think its a bit like expecting your phone's camera to be professional, as expecting the audio to be that well catered for.. there are so many "cheap" dedicated audio recorders out there that will give you all the pro control you need for FAR less the price people here pay for a lens filter.. even a lens itself..

Whilst i think its something the original firmware could have included without that much of a fuss.. i think the solution is a very easy one and like swyzlstyx says other than a sync track , why would someone making a Pro looking project only use the built in sound?
 
I'm with you guys, it seems like a waste of time to be trying to record audio on the GH1 - the built in mics work great for a sync track, but beyond that, the hodgepodge of stuff you'd need to pile on to the GH1 in order to maybe record something halfway decent, even if you can eliminate AGC is just...WHY? You're gonna take good mics and then run them through adapters into this tiny unbalanced plug on the GH1 and think you're gonna get good audio with the GH1s pre-amps? Just get a Zoom H4N or better and a clapboard.
 
I'm with you guys, it seems like a waste of time to be trying to record audio on the GH1 - the built in mics work great for a sync track, but beyond that, the hodgepodge of stuff you'd need to pile on to the GH1 in order to maybe record something halfway decent, even if you can eliminate AGC is just...WHY? You're gonna take good mics and then run them through adapters into this tiny unbalanced plug on the GH1 and think you're gonna get good audio with the GH1s pre-amps? Just get a Zoom H4N or better and a clapboard.


When I bought the GH-1, my intention was to buy an external recording device, and the justification for 'saving' 500 (or 1000 + lens) on the naked 7-D, was so I could buy such an audio device.

So, the onboard audio recording from either the onboard mic, or via an external connection, was only for me a 'convenience' when I'm doing 'happy shots'...

The firmware hack, may be successful in something, but at the moment I'm fine with the camera pretty much as is.

If I want higher bit rate, live HDMI, etc.... I'll buy a 7-D (or whatever is the next big thing...) If Panasonic has it in the Lumix class of cameras... I'll probably be strongly biased to buy Panasonic... if I really need those features, and Panasonic has not put them into the Lumix line... then I'll evaluate what Canon has done..

My motto has been for years... you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... But that doesn't mean that you can't have a nice pigskin purse...
 
Let's see, it takes 1 XLR 3-Step adjustable attenuator (4" barrel plug), a 1' XLR to 3.5mm cable and a 3.5 to 2.5mm adapter to get great audio quality with the GH1. So 3 pieces which act as a 1.5' audio cable when connected together.

When needed, I also have a Beachtek SVU-2 portable LED audio meter with a headphone jack that allows me to check the quality of the GH1 audio in the field by playing back the files in the GH1 after recording a couple test shots.

Why do this? Because I want an already synced, high-quality usable audio backup to my Zoom recorder in case there is a problem there. It also allows me to edit my videos quicker and more accurately since the audio waveforms will match perfectly between the GH1 audio and Zoom recorder since they are recording the same mic or portable audio mixer signal. In fact in many cases, I don't even need to bring the Zoom audio into the timeline until the later stages of the edit if at all, since the quality of the GH1 audio is now comparable to my Zoom recorder.

To each his own, everyone has their own workflow preferences. But don't knock it till you try it, you may be surprised with the results...

Randy
 
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Guys, can we return to my proposition?
It is very interesting to read how internal microphones are bad (despite the fact that in all high priced lavaliers you'll see Panasonic electret capsules)
And I am not talking about internal ones.
It is also good for you to know why balanced connections exists.
And why nonbalanced ones are exactly the same quality for short connections.
 
I don't know how this relates to this thread.
If these guys made normal SD recorder for this price that can also do output to camera inpout in parralel it could be interesting.
In current state this is way overpriced junk.
 
Let's see, it takes 1 XLR 3-Step adjustable attenuator (4" barrel plug), a 1' XLR to 3.5mm cable and a 3.5 to 2.5mm adapter to get great audio quality with the GH1. So 3 pieces which act as a 1.5' audio cable when connected together.

When needed, I also have a Beachtek SVU-2 portable LED audio meter with a headphone jack that allows me to check the quality of the GH1 audio in the field by playing back the files in the GH1 after recording a couple test shots.

Why do this? Because I want an already synced, high-quality usable audio backup to my Zoom recorder in case there is a problem there. It also allows me to edit my videos quicker and more accurately since the audio waveforms will match perfectly between the GH1 audio and Zoom recorder since they are recording the same mic or portable audio mixer signal. In fact in many cases, I don't even need to bring the Zoom audio into the timeline until the later stages of the edit if at all, since the quality of the GH1 audio is now comparable to my Zoom recorder.

To each his own, everyone has their own workflow preferences. But don't knock it till you try it, you may be surprised with the results...

Randy


That is fair enough - I can grasp why you'd want it for certain things, I think I am thinking too much in terms of narrative filmmaking mode - even with the adapter setup you've mentioned, you still don't have real phantom power that you can trust for any mic, and if you're using a boom op, you really don't want to just run that into the camera with all those connections if you can help it - every link you add to a chain is going to have some sort of negative impact and I just don't think the pre-amps in the GH1 are what I'd want to use for a narrative project - that's just me...for docu-style with a battery-powered condenser that you're going to mount to the camera or something like that, I can understand why you'd want to get rid of AGC and have the ability to control it in cam, it's just a lot of things to go wrong in my opinion. For the narrative work I'm doing, the built in mics give me a great scratch/sync track even with AGC so I'm just not sweating it - but it wouldn't be of a sufficient quality to use if my 2nd system sound failed - so it's all fair enough, I really don't mean to sound so down on it.
 
You don't use an audio mixer for your "narrative filmmaking" shoots?

If I don't need to run/gun, I almost always use a high-quality portable 4-channel portable audio mixer that can handle/power any mic or even accept line-level sources plus it has 2 XLR mic/line level outputs so I can feed a mic-level XLR output to the GH1 with the attenuator/mini plug adapter and send a line-level output to my Zoom recorder's line input to bypass the mic preamp in that.

In the run/gun situation without an audio mixer and just a single mic, I can add a 6" XLR Y-splitter cable and send audio to the GH1 (same XLR attenuator/adapter setup) and the Zoom recorder at the same time from any of my mics. Since I'm using Sennheiser mics with the K6 power module, I'm ready to go.

Randy
 
Wow... I wish someone had made these revelations earlier. This dreaded 'ALC' has been one of the biggest drawbacks to moving my production over to the GH1. The headache of syncing audio, or dealing with a bulky and unwieldily external device to 'trick' the ALC has been a major hindrance that has held me back.

A simple limiter on the other hand, is completely acceptable. Thank you Ozpeter for bringing this up and Cavemandude for testing it so thoroughly.
 
I'll try to do a graduated tone test in the next 48 hours. That means generating a tone in the PC that rises in level in precise steps, and recording that through the GH1 mics. Then compare carefully the original steps and the recorded steps. I'd predict that at low to medium levels the original steps would be accurately reproduced in level by the GH1. At higher levels the GH1 would progressively reduce the original levels and it would be possible to plot a curve of the GH1's limiter in operation. Also it would be possible to generate short loud tones with low levels in between and see how quickly the GH1 limiter clamps and releases.

I have a humble Panasonic SD5 AVCHD camcorder that has optional manual record levels. I have to say that setting manual levels effectively using the imprecise controls and small on-screen meters is not easy. Manual control of sound levels really needs very nice controls (eg use of focus ring) and a well graduated big meter display. Not something I could imagine coming out of tester13's project anytime soon. But a simple on/off limiter setting would enable sound level control externally for anyone who is keen to have it.
 
I don't buy the limiter over AGC assertion here. I've shot a lot of stuff on the GH1 and I've noticed a pattern more consistent with AGC. I once had a shoot where I was inside a house next to a busy street. When people were talking all you could hear was that, and the background was nice and quiet. However on takes with no dialog, the camera increased the gain, and all I could hear was a sound of cars outside, as loud as the dialog had been recorded before (checked.) A clear sign of auto level control.
 
Ben_B,

Are you talking about the built-in mic or using an external mic and/or audio mixer connected to the GH1 mic input?

Randy
 
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