Get 9.5 Stops of dynamic range from your DVX100

We are already at the end of hardware beta. We're waiting on our production units to arrive and then normal business begins.

The concept will work on PAL cameras but we haven't fine tuned the hardware for a PAL version yet. We have more than one beta tester who is using an NTSC DVX100 Andromeda in Europe. Remember that Andromeda doesn't output PAL/NTSC, it just outputs raw images.

As far as higher-end cameras, the main reason is that there is a certain amount of time, effort and resources that is taken in adapting the concept for a specific camera. What we do is based on what users and potential-users ask us for, and we've had far more people ask us for XL2 versions(for example) than a pro camera. Some pro cameras also have SDI out options which are not as good as 4:4:4 raw output, but is much closer than compressed tape.

Cheers,
Juan
 
I'm watching the footage as I write this.....

Looks awesome,

Can I get a person shooting the person shooting the footage signed by a notary to vouge for this incrediable clarity and dof USING THE dvx 100a.


Once again - the BEST footage I have ever seen from a DVX..

DMB
 
P.S. I brought my wife upstairs and I said "Look at this, what do you think",


History - my wife does not care a rat's ..... about video.

"she says " looks like a clip from a move film... good detaiL, what's it called".

DMB
 
Juan, glad to here you're working on PAL. While I understand the NTSC/PAL things doesn't matter with the Andromeda, it will definately matter for those that want to use the camera for normal SD work. Also power supplies etc. Good luck.

You know, a DVX + Andromeda + Micro35 would come in lower in price than an HVX no? And you'd get more dynamic range I'd imagine. That combo sounds really interesting.
 
pertierr said:
As far as higher-end cameras, the main reason is that there is a certain amount of time, effort and resources that is taken in adapting the concept for a specific camera.
Click to expand...
That's of course the answer I expected to hear. Anyway, great work--impressive product/engineering concept!
 
Ok, I don't get it. I thought that CCDs were physically limited to only being able to accept 7-8 stops of lattitude.
 
Not so. The easiest way to picture how it works is to imagine each "pixel"(sensor element) in a CCD as a bucket, and photons as golf balls. Dynamic range is basically the size of the bucket. The sensor is able to detect all the way from when a bucket receives 1 golf ball, up to when it receives the maximum amount of golf balls the bucket can hold. After that point, it makes no difference.

So if you picture a small sensor with many (small) pixels, the buckets fill up quicker so this is why small dense sensors tend to clip to white quickly and have small dynamic range.

This is an extremely over-simplified explanation, but i think it illustrates how it works.

Cheers,
Juan
 
Juan, is that new footage clean andromeda DVX or did the shooter use a 35mm adapter like Obin has done in the past? From the look I'm guessing no but that's just a guess. :)
 
The tester shot this on a plain DVX100A with Andromeda, nothing else. He was using a powerbook to record.

I should also point out that this is footage from the beta version, the release version looks even better because it records more information from the CCD's than the beta version does, and has the ability to record beyond 8-bits.

Cheers,
Juan
 
pertierr said:
.... the release version looks even better because it records more information from the CCD's than the beta version does, and has the ability to record beyond 8-bits.
Click to expand...
It sounds as if there IS a released version. As in you have the product now available. Is that the case? And when will we see some vid of the released version??

And if this requires modification of the DVX100a which voids the warrenty then it really makes no sense to buy the more expensive USA version and we should buy either a used one or a grey market one for the cheepest price. :)
Least expensive one I've found is so far is HERE

But let me ask a technical hardware question. What your saying is that you need to take the USB out from the modified DVX100(x) and run that into a computer hard drive. In order to do that are you actually running a program that captures everything that is coming through the video lens? In other words the output of the camera is always "on" when the camera is on but is only being captured when the computer is told to do so?? And if it is a mini-mac is there a very small screen that could be used?

Here is my thoughts. You take one of the shoulder mounts like THIS and mount a bracket on the back that would hold the mini-mac. But evidently you need a monitor to see the program to start it. What about a small button attached to that shoulder mount that would act like a mouse button that you could press to start the program running to capture footage?? You would need to have a battery belt with converter to keep the mini-mac running.

But this sounds like a way to make this rig a bit more portable. Thoughts?
 
This is a strange thread, where dynamic range (a capture device property) compression artifacts and tradeoffs, LUT options,… are all mixed up.
It’s fine to (re)digitize 3 analog signals at full resolution and high bit/pixel count. That’s where the real work for the digital cams electronic designer starts: manipulate the data in order to get a good looking, versatile picture. One of the things they have to decide is how the LUT options are going to be (the gamma related Cine look, knee processing…) They will end up with some black stretching and highlight compression in order to get expanded mid ranges. The latter being important for getting “vivid images” This doesn’t mean that the DR is reduced . Only the inter relationship between shades is being adapted. The lowest level and the highest level are not being changed by doing this and up until now the ratio of those two values is what determines the DR, not what happens in between. From the Andromedio pix there is no way to conclude that this ratio is being changed. Only the LUT setting is somewhat different as compared to the cinelook settings in the DVX.
 
Andre:

We are not re-digitizing anything. We are taking the signals as they are digitized by the Analog-to-Digital converters already inside the DVX. The DVX originally has this 12-bit/channel data at its disposal, but it is the internal processing of the camera that reduces the amount of information and quality.

Let me explain it again in another way:
1.We connected a DVX via FW to a computer, and also via USB(Andromeda 4:4:4) to another computer simultaneously.
2.We recorded a single frame, this same frame was recorded through both DV via Firewire and via Andromeda over USB. This is the exact same picture, but Andromeda shows the original digitized data, and the DV image shows what the in-camera processing does to that data. The standard camera output is generated from the original digitized data, so there can not be any additional information in the DV output that is not in the Andromeda output.
3.We carefully measured the light coming through each bar of the chart using a light meter, and labeled the images.

4.This is very simple. Andromeda captures details at brighter levels of light that the DV output fails to do so. We tried all possible settings on the standard DV Scene Settings, and we stuck with the setting that showed the most dynamic range, and this setting is widely known to maximize dynamic range.

The DV output shows details across 7 stops and the Andromeda output shows details across 9-9.5 stops, if this is not an increase in the dynamic range transmitted to the output, then what is?

In practical terms, if you are shooting a scene that involved similar light levels as the chart, then the DV output wouldn't see the details at the levels of the brightest two bars, while Andromeda would indeed capture those details. Again, that's a clear increase in the dynamic range of the aquisition(latitude).

You are correct in classifying dynamic range in this sense as a property of the capture device. However, you must remember that the dynamic range of device is measured by what you see at its output. Even though the CCD's on the DVX physically capture more dynamic range than the DV output can show, the standard DVX without Andromeda has to be qualified by what you can obtain from it, not what it internally does but you never see. Nobody will care if you have a camera with an imaging head that captures 16 stops, if at the output you can only see 7 stops, and the rest is clipped to white. In effect, that camera can ~reproduce~ 7 stops only.

I'd be happy to explain this more, in fact I am working on a short paper which explains all of this and compares digital to film. It will be posted on our website soon.

Hope this helps,
Juan
 
heisest:

The idea you describe is a possibility. In fact, we have one beta tester who did something very similar to this. And yes, there are all sorts of screens you can hookup to a mac mini, there are in fact very tiny and cheap touchscreens out there that work fine.

Another setup is to use a powerbook, possibly the 12" which is very small. Because it has a built-in screen and battery, you don't have to worry about those separate aspects. The powerbook can be run closed, and an external USB keypad, mouse or other controller be used to control sculptor. The only caveat, as with any other system, is that you need to make sure it gets ventilation and doesn't overheat if you carry it inside a tight bag/case while it is running.

TotalX:
Our production units are due to arrive during Novemeber, at which point regular business begins. You will be able to order directly from our new website.

Cheers,
Juan
 
I'm not going to even try and wrap my brain around all the technospeak and numbers and such. For me the proof is in what I've seen. The Andromeda provides a great image that I haven't seen from anything else in this price range. That's enough for me. I'm sold.

Just have to wait for my year end bonus...
 
Pertierr
Agree about the "re-digitizing" but this doesn't change the essence of my mailing. I only was reading the thread a bit too fast.
Dynamic range is about a range , not about the ability to differentiate levels (shades) between the two limits which enclose this range. This range is being limited by the CCD's "well overflow"(vertical streaking...) at the highlight side and the " dark current" at the black levels. Standard 8 bit/pixel DV compression in the DVX doesn't lower that ratio as compared to the Andromedia approach. It maps the full 12bits/pixel/channel after the necessary(wanted) manipulations. In the highlights it applies highlight compression, assuring subjectively bright pictures, a technique also well know in the display signal processing.
 
Andre:

I agree with everything except the last statement. The in-camera processing clearly decreases the effective dynamic range of the system, from what the digitized CCD information actually captures. If it didn't, you would still be able to see the bright bars on the DV output, just as you see them in the Andromeda output.

The bright point in the ratio is lowered as the tests show. You are right that a lot of different processes go on inside the camera, but in the end, regardless of what names you assign to the internal processes, the result is one and the same: a lower Dmax on the DV output.

Cheers,
Juan
 
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