Get 9.5 Stops of dynamic range from your DVX100

Juan-

Thanks for all your explainers and work on this project, it is very interesting to follow, as well as confusing at times ... I look forward to when the final product is available.
 
Juan, any estimate on how long it will be before you have a final product for PC? I'm definitely interested in the mod myself and with enough of these sort of tests may be able to convince those above me to pay for the "upgrade."

Oh, one other thing. Have you run tests with res charts utilizing the entire iris range of the DVX? I'm curious how the DVX will handle HD and diffraction. It shouldn't be much (if at all) different than the standard DVX if I understand the technical side correctly?
 
Shaw,

That's correct. What you're talking about is a characteristic of the optics, which is not altered. We're working on posting more comparison charts soon, comparing Andromeda to the HD100, Z1, etc.

A PC version is tricky, here's why. A PC version for processing the raw files is not a problem, but on the recording side not all USB host controllers/architectures can handle the speed needed for Andromeda. So not only would we have to develop drivers for Windows, but some method of testing the large number of PC systems out there to find out which are fast enough and which aren't.

With macs, there are only a few models to test, and they use a relatively fast USB controller. Andromeda is just a very unique application in that i don't know of any other USB device that requires such a large amount of bandwidth consistently.

There are many other advantages to using macs for this application, the existence of the mac mini is certainly one of them. :)

Cheers,
Juan
 
So the chances of a PC version are rather slim (if not non-extant)? Darn. I only ask because I already have access to a PC laptop.
 
I'd say it really all depends on how successful the concept is and what the users ask for. If the users consistently ask for a PC version then it will be done. :)
 
Mac Mini also includes the popular 'Futura' font, which a $22 upgrade for Windows.
In fact, Apple bundles "thousands of dollars" worth of typefaces with OS X. Surely you'd find a use.
 
pertierr said:
This thread has made me decide to remove those images. They were one of the very first Andromeda shots, and where done in Vegas at NAB with the very first prototype, but I think the latest dynamic range chart serves the same purpose.
Click to expand...

Cool, I think it would stop a bit of confusion and unwarranted complaints like mine :beer:

When capturing uncompressed, can exposure be set using the LCD and viewfinder? does zebra pattern work? On the lastest designs is there still an exposure difference between uncompressed and DV output?
 
pertierr said:
I'd say it really all depends on how successful the concept is and what the users ask for. If the users consistently ask for a PC version then it will be done. :)
Click to expand...
If the speed of capturing is the issue... what about capturing the video on a mini but transfering it to a pc to edit?? Isn't the video footage the same file type from platform to platform?? (You must admit there are LOTS of pc editors out there and could add to your bottom line if you were to support that aspect of it.)
 
Oh yeah, you can work on PC just fine as far as editing goes. In fact, Obin has done all his editing on PC, but shot the Andromeda footage on a mac mini.

He made the tornado effects shot on the PC with Andromeda footage which is here:
http://www.reel-stream.com/clips

As well as the commercial spot on that same page.
 
WOW! I read through the post. I am impressed with the technical capabilites to deliver this from a DVX100 and not to mention the obvious results in quality that are exceptional.

It left me questioning my existance....


I would think making the "Andromeda" initial investment would cascade into other investment requirements, in terms of what you need to support it.

Anyone making the commitment would want to use it, and why not the results are spectcular.

A standard 1 TB drive runs roughly 1k and when formated holds say 9 hours of filming, you probably want to raid it, price jumps to 1.5k or higher.

But what do you do with the raw footage after editing, do you delete it, maybe. I would think you would need to keep the final + some of the unedited, just in case.

The 1TB would barely be adequate, more realistic is a 2.5 RAID, now data storage is over 3k, and not to mention the backup system.

I couldn't see myself editing the original copy with out making a backup first.

Ok - Not bad. ohh, I need a MAC.

I see a total cost coming in at around 8K if you are serious on data safe guards.
Sounds like data storage and life cycle data management is a serious $ consideration.
 
dmbdvx said:
Ok - Not bad. ohh, I need a MAC.
Click to expand...

Yeah you do! :thumbsup: :beer: :grin:

Those storage issues are a good concern, and I had not thought about that side of it yet. How are those people who are testign it using storing there footage? I can't imagine that you would just delete it.
 
Not quite, the hardware requirements are nowhere that stringent. :)

You don't need raid arrays for recording(or storage). The sustained data rate for recording is 27MB/sec, which any single modern drive can do.

I'm also curious, if you're talking backing up footage, then do you think the same about P2 cards? How many P2 cards do you need for 9 hours of footage, hard disks for backups, etc?

If you take the suggested approach of swapping out cards during the day, the same applies with Andromeda. The difference is each drive holds a lot more footage and costs a lot less:

A 2.5" notebook drive is about $150 last time I purchased one. With an external enclosure, let's say $250. The cheapest P2 card at B&H is over $2000 and it only holds a few minutes of ~compressed~ footage. And if you use full size drives instead of laptop drives it's even cheaper.

Not to mention that none of our beta testers have even come close to spending the figures you are quoting. In fact, we have testers that have gotten a mac mini setup running for well under $1k. I think the most expensive setup are the testers who have decided to use a powerbook instead of a mac mini. That's it. If you want to hook it up to a RAID, for super redundancy that is your call, but it would be the same call regardless of what kind of system acquired the video.

Again, I think it's all about the footage and what your vision for your project is. If you can make the pre-packaged compressed footage from one of the camcorders fit your application, then you're set. But if you need extra dynamic range, color precision, and the freedom that uncompressed 4:4:4 footage brings for color-correcting and compositing, then this is pretty much the only tool that will do this under the (rentalpurchase) price of something like a Viper system.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions... :)
Juan
 
So then are people archiving their footage onto Hard Drive? HD's are cheaper then P2. I just wonder if they are buying a new HD for each project, and then archiving the HD for furture use.
 
I did not mean to imply it has stringent hardware requirements but to imply consideration on long term video storage and data management as a issue much greater than normal compressed video. In most cases compressed video is on a semi-perm media tape.

In the digital age we tend to overlook storage and data protection, with a sustained rate of 27mb a second..

When you go tapeless you need to store it, and If I used the "Andromeda" I know in two months I would seriously be looking to aquire more (better) long term storage.

I truely understand the benifits of what is being offered with the modification and like I said is a technical marvel.


Are you taking Pre-Orders?
 
Remember that with tape, you keep everything you shot in the tape, even all the stuff you never used. With Andromeda footage, you initially record to a raw file, but then you export only the frames you need. So when you backup you don't necessarily need to backup all that stuff you never used, only the footage you actually used or want to keep.

I believe our beta testers are just using hard disks or cheaper media like DVD-ROM to backup data. Once it's recorded, it's all just computer files so any of the standard storage solutions will work, including lossless compression formats such as .zip, etc.

We will be taking pre-orders soon.
 
I'd be careful about going overboard with hard disk redundancy. Just think about tape for a second. It's possible to have dropouts with them, right? There's no redundancy there. The chance of a well taken care of drive to fail is not very common in this day and age. HD redundancy is something I'd think about for storing all the accumulated footage on my edit station. But on a field capture setup? It may be a tad overkill.

Although if you go with the big 1TB drives, they are usually RAID0, and that could be more dangerous then you think. You know what RAID0 means right? Zero chance of data recovery if you loose 1 drive! If you intend on going big disk, take a single drive enclosure with a removable disk tray, and swap out 400GB or 500GB disks as you need.
 
pertierr said:
We will be taking pre-orders soon.
Click to expand...

When do you expect to be past the beta and/or pre-order stuff? Normal business I mean.
Will this work for the "E" versions as well? (E=PAL e.g. DVX100AE) I read something about
DVX-100(P/AP)
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but I don't know whether you ment the "E" versions.
Will you handle European customers? I assume the shipping will be quite expensive.

regards,
Oli
 
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