Fuji X-T3 released

NorBro said:
Neutral is always REC709 when discussing picture profiles in a stills camera. It's either LOG or everything else, and 'Eterna' is on the neutral side rather than say 'Velvia', which is more crushed & saturated, or another simulation.

Nevertheless the Fujis have very stylized looks.
Click to expand...

To be honest I've never heard the word "neutral" used to describe a baked in and stylized look, and also haven't differentiated between stills cameras shooting video and video cameras shooting video, but I wasn't saying it's not neutral because its 709. I'm saying Eterna is not a neutral profile because it's pretty stylized in terms of color, and in a way that wouldn't work for all projects. It's a film simulation.

To my understanding, neutral is what the camera sees without applying a particular look and leaves it to the cinematographer or colorist to apply a creative look in post. The only way to do that on the X-T3 I have in my hands is to shoot F-LOG and add contrast/saturation, then creative grade after the fact. The other shooting modes are all film simulations.
 
Every camera (or most) on the market has a picture profile or picture style that is called 'Neutral' or 'Natural'.

---

The film simulation is just marketing. It's not simulating film, lol...it's a digital camera for $1500. (Yea, Yea...they apply certain characteristics of their films stocks.)

You can think of 'Eterna' as a natural or neutral picture profile/style that the other Japanese cameras offer. Even if it's stylized, it's not as stylized as the others. Just like neutral or natural is not as stylized as vivid or landscape or portrait.

These are just descriptions by businessmen/women...don't read too much into it.
 
Also wanted to add that when I say these companies (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus) have natural or neutral picture profiles/styles, I mean in the menu as an option (that's what they are called).

And they do not look like LOG. They look like something the brain may process for the eyes to see.

LOG is not natural or neutral; it's dull and lifeless.

So when someone asks if there is something more natural then that's what I think of and not LOG because LOG is not natural to me. And the rest of the options in the Fuji camera besides maybe one of the Provia flavors are more punchy and less natural than Eterna, IMO.
 
NorBro said:
Also wanted to add that when I say these companies (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus) have natural or neutral picture profiles/styles, I mean in the menu as an option (that's what they are called).

And they do not look like LOG. They look like something the brain may process for the eyes to see.

LOG is not natural or neutral; it's dull and lifeless.

So when someone asks if there is something more natural then that's what I think of and not LOG because LOG is not natural to me. And the rest of the options in the Fuji camera besides maybe one of the Provia flavors are more punchy and less natural than Eterna, IMO.
Click to expand...

Eterna is one of the least natural picture profile on Fuji camera, it's heavily stylised.

Shoot F-log and apply Fuji's WDR BT.709 LUT, very clean neutral images, you can compare it with Eterna LUT and see the difference.
 
In your opinion.

And once post-production enters the discussion, it's a different conversation.
 
Maybe it's best to show videos:

Random example of Eterna film simulation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4M6Pt4AhaI

Random example of Panasonic's natural: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcgd8WN02m4&t=237s

---

I guess if someone thinks of natural as LOG then my point won't get through to the noggin.

But just 2-3 years ago 99% of the world didn't know what LOG was, and anything remotely close was the 'natural' or 'neutral' setting that the camera offered with its settings dialed down.

But if natural is now shooting LOG with a grade then so be it.
 
Yea, I would use that one or the Eterna as NorBro's neutral. (I said Provia flavors above but meant Pro Negative flavors as there's 2 for that one.)

You can see more in the shadows of the Eterna than any of them which some people may like.
 
NorBro said:
Every camera (or most) on the market has a picture profile or picture style that is called 'Neutral' or 'Natural'.

---

The film simulation is just marketing. It's not simulating film, lol...it's a digital camera for $1500. (Yea, Yea...they apply certain characteristics of their films stocks.)

You can think of 'Eterna' as a natural or neutral picture profile/style that the other Japanese cameras offer. Even if it's stylized, it's not as stylized as the others. Just like neutral or natural is not as stylized as vivid or landscape or portrait.

These are just descriptions by businessmen/women...don't read too much into it.
Click to expand...

I don't believe this is true. The film simulations are, well, simulating Fuji's film stocks, replicating color and contrast pretty perfectly. I've actually shot half the Fuji stocks in 35mm stills form and can confirm it's not just marketing speak. It's actually one of the things I love about the camera most.

If you shoot with that Eterna profile, I'm not sure how it could be construed as neutral. Even the camera itself describes it as "Soft color and rich shadow tone suitable for film look movie".
 
NorBro said:
Also wanted to add that when I say these companies (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus) have natural or neutral picture profiles/styles, I mean in the menu as an option (that's what they are called).

And they do not look like LOG. They look like something the brain may process for the eyes to see.

LOG is not natural or neutral; it's dull and lifeless.

So when someone asks if there is something more natural then that's what I think of and not LOG because LOG is not natural to me. And the rest of the options in the Fuji camera besides maybe one of the Provia flavors are more punchy and less natural than Eterna, IMO.
Click to expand...

I think we may be talking about different things, or have a very different way of talking about the same things. My understanding is that "natural" and "neutral" have different meanings. Natural means that it doesn't look artificial, but something can look "natural" and be stylized or altered heavily. A good example would be a scene that is graded to be sundrenched or a day-for-night grade. If you do those right, they look natural. My understanding of what neutral means is that the camera is just capturing what it sees with nothing artistic applied. No color casts in highlights or shadows and contrast not high or low. Neutral.

If a client asked me for a neutral image, I would not give them Eterna. I would shoot F-LOG and apply a normalizing 709 LUT (or use curves/sat to get to a similar place). Similarly, I believe it'd be wrong to tell someone just picking up this camera for the first time that they'll get a neutral image using the Eterna film sim.
 
There is just no point when LOG is brought into the equation. If one thinks 'Pro Negative Standard' is more neutral or natural then that's perfectly fine. It's like suggesting 'faithful' is more neutral or natural than 'neutral' or 'natural' and that I understand. But shooting LOG and then applying a LUT and calling it neutral/natural (assuming everyone edits) is not something I personally agree with it in this context and question.

If the Canon 1DC I sold you didn't have CLOG, what would you use if a client asked you to shoot neutral or natural?
 
Last edited:
By the way...just wanted to touch up on a technicality.

The reason I am using both terms - neutral and natural - is because Canon and Sony use the term 'neutral' inside the menu while Panasonic uses 'natural'. Same purpose; just being different.

(I don't remember which term Olympus uses.)
 
Batutta said:
Question about this camera. Is it possible to get a more neutral look with this camera? Not that I dislike the color science, but everything I've seen from this camera has a certain look about it and I'm curious if that's always baked in, or can you get an uncoloured look from it?
Click to expand...

You can get as neutral a look from FLOG as you like, but if you need a picture profile baked in I love the “Provia” profile the most. That’s Fuji’s “Standard” look, and it’s very natural and less look-y than the rest.
 
I will take natural over neutral any day and wouldn't get my knickers in a twist if the new standard was negative. But naturally it is not.
 
From what I've seen on YouTube and Vimeo, I really like the Eterna and Classic Chrome look!
 
Last edited:
NorBro said:
There is just no point when LOG is brought into the equation. If one thinks Pro Negative Standard is more neutral or natural then that’s perfectly fine. It’s like saying ‘faithful’ is more neutral or natural than ‘neutral’ or ‘natural’ and that I understand. But not shooting LOG and then applying a LUT and calling it natural (assuming everyone edits).

If the Canon 1DC I sold you didn’t have CLOG, what would you use if a client asked you to shoot neutral or natural?
Click to expand...

Well if we're talking specifically about the 1DC, I'd have to test because I haven't been in that situation where a client both wants me to hand them a card after AND specifically asked for a neutral image. I always either shoot LOG and grade (90% of the time) or use a baked-in look of my choosing (usually VisionColor). I certainly wouldn't hand a client LOG if they wanted finished files because that's not what LOG is for.

On the Fuji, I actually addressed exactly this question above:

Fahnon said:
If a client asked me for a neutral image, I would not give them Eterna. I would shoot F-LOG and apply a normalizing 709 LUT (or use curves/sat to get to a similar place). Similarly, I believe it'd be wrong to tell someone just picking up this camera for the first time that they'll get a neutral image using the Eterna film sim.
Click to expand...

Here's where I believe the disconnect is: The idea that Eterna is a neutral picture profile and not replicating Fuji's Eterna film stock. I've tested my X-T3 in both F-LOG and with the Eterna sim baked in and, after bringing back contrast and saturation, one looks neutral in terms of color and one looks like a film stock applied. And if you use the Fujifilm-provided Eterna LUT, it looks identical to the baked in Eterna sim. Now it's fair to say that the film look isn't too extreme and looks fairly neutral to your eye, but that is different than asserting that it's the camera's neutral picture profile. Also the idea that it's not a real film sim isn't true.

I'll put it another way: If I shoot the same scene on an EVA-1 and a C-series and an FS7, in a neutral 709 profile with the same WB settings and same lens, you may have some variation in how one camera sees red or blue or whatever, but most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'd bet almost all of us here wouldn't be able to identify which is which. If you put any or all of those cameras up against an X-T3 shooting the same scene in Eterna, it would look like someone graded the footage in comparison. It'd look like a Fuji film stock.

Alik Griffin sees what I see when he looks at Eterna:
"It has a truly unique look and color to it, somewhere between Classic Chrome and ProNeg Std, you just have to blast the contrast."
https://alikgriffin.com/a-look-at-fujifilms-eterna-film-simulator/

Look, man, you're in New York; come on down to Brooklyn and I'll show you what I mean using a C200 and the X-T3 if you want.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top