FS700 no 4K for odyssey? really?
- Thread starter felner4k
- Start date
waefre
Well-known member
Patience. All good things come.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Odyssey7Q-Status-Update&highlight=Odyssey+7q
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-Odyssey7Q-Status-Update&highlight=Odyssey+7q
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Various forms of 4K support are forthcoming.
Hello Mitch..
wow thank you so much for answering my question. Could i just ask one more: If the FS700 only outputs 8 bit how does the Odyssey find 10 bit? Is it because its
a) converting 8 bit to 10bit (eg. like a DVD copy of a VHS) .. or
b) it bypasses the camera's image processor when going to the Odyssey?
wow thank you so much for answering my question. Could i just ask one more: If the FS700 only outputs 8 bit how does the Odyssey find 10 bit? Is it because its
a) converting 8 bit to 10bit (eg. like a DVD copy of a VHS) .. or
b) it bypasses the camera's image processor when going to the Odyssey?
Ahhhh.. thanks !! I finally see the difference. I read somewhere it could only output 8bit.. which got me sidetracked. But theres a RAW option on the FS700 then it changes everything. No wonder Sony and Convergent are struggling to agree on a solution.. that's dangerously superior.
iconoclast6
Member
Nope you got it right, but the 7Q does the SLOMO. Also includes features at a subscription/rental cost beyond the unit cost, as I understand it. No ProRes as of yet, though the Samurai Blade does record 10 bit Prores. These early manufacturers, in this case Convergent, are really capitalizing on being among the first out of the box insofar as 4k and Raw. I think its a pretty amazing feature se, but the total feature set cost is outrageous. Add to that, the high proprietary storage cost, this unit is downright ripe for spirited competitors.
Some folks will likely fork over the exorbitant $$ in the early days. Canon and Nikon who have lost market share by unnecessarily segmenting features,, with high costs, over too many different models. The market (us) catches on quick with companies like BlackMagic and GoPro who show that desirable features can be provided at reasonable price points.
I too was hot to trot to the 7Q, but have decided to cool my jets and have purchased the Samurai Blade. The Blade isn't perfect...no native slomo with the FS700 or 4k, but it does provide 10 Bit Prores and works with BlackMagic and the 5DM3. I'm content to wait for the other stuff until the market dictates its desires of features and price points to manufacturers who are more responsive to the masses.
Some folks will likely fork over the exorbitant $$ in the early days. Canon and Nikon who have lost market share by unnecessarily segmenting features,, with high costs, over too many different models. The market (us) catches on quick with companies like BlackMagic and GoPro who show that desirable features can be provided at reasonable price points.
I too was hot to trot to the 7Q, but have decided to cool my jets and have purchased the Samurai Blade. The Blade isn't perfect...no native slomo with the FS700 or 4k, but it does provide 10 Bit Prores and works with BlackMagic and the 5DM3. I'm content to wait for the other stuff until the market dictates its desires of features and price points to manufacturers who are more responsive to the masses.
Last edited:
Mitch Gross
Veteran
There are products for every price point and every need. I would like to note that until the release of the Odyssey7Q, a recorder with its capabilities would cost 10 times more.
waefre
Well-known member
I would disagree with iconoclast and say the Odyssey 7Q is being amazingly responsive to the masses. Much like Red camera did; they listened to the people and are giving them what they have wanted all along. Many people bought the FS700 with the promise that it would be 4K capable in the near future. I didn't trust that promise but bought mine because it has a phenominal image and unrivaled slowmo at the price point. When sony finally gave Fs700 users a 4k "solution" it was a joke and cost twice as much as the camera itself. The Odyssey 7Q is addressing that problem and giving us a much more reasonable solution at a lot nicer price point.
It's not a cheap monitor but that's exactly because it is a premium product. Lots and lots of research and development have gone into making this thing a reality and it really seems they are trying to please everyone. You site the Gopro as an example of companies providing superior products at low prices. I'm a gopro3 owner and love them myself but just this week a production I was on lost an entire card full of footage for seeminly no reason. It showed clips on the Gopro and then when transferred to the computer it was gone. I've had the same problem with mine at another point and if you google "gopro lost footage" you will see it is not uncommon. A high end production monitor/recorder can not afford to have these sorts of whimsical "glitches". Moreover many people would also argue (not me) that 400$ is way too much for an silly fisheye camera with no lcd and no ability to control the shutter iris or even lock the exposure.
I currently own a Marshall 7" which I love and use as my on camera monitor. It cost me 1200 and it a great monitor but it's not OLED and the specs on the O7Q are much better. Plus the O7Q is a recorder.
The "high cost propriety storage" is priced almost exactly the same per GB as conventional Sd cards. So I'm also going to disagree there also.
Out of the box the O7Q will be able to record Hd video in 10bit DPX stacks and eventually in prores. Beyond that there are upgrade options which are available if you need them. They are camera specific and a lot of time and research has gone into making each one work seamlessly with each camera, so yeah they are going to cost something. You pay for quality and you pay for customer service and you pay for peoples time. They seem like a company that wants to get this thing right and they're taking the time and effort to do that. Having a product that works the way its supposed to and that's backed up by people who will address it if it doesn't is something I'm very willing to pay for. They have really lowered the price point for a monitor with these kind of capabilites when you look at it.
It's not a cheap monitor but that's exactly because it is a premium product. Lots and lots of research and development have gone into making this thing a reality and it really seems they are trying to please everyone. You site the Gopro as an example of companies providing superior products at low prices. I'm a gopro3 owner and love them myself but just this week a production I was on lost an entire card full of footage for seeminly no reason. It showed clips on the Gopro and then when transferred to the computer it was gone. I've had the same problem with mine at another point and if you google "gopro lost footage" you will see it is not uncommon. A high end production monitor/recorder can not afford to have these sorts of whimsical "glitches". Moreover many people would also argue (not me) that 400$ is way too much for an silly fisheye camera with no lcd and no ability to control the shutter iris or even lock the exposure.
I currently own a Marshall 7" which I love and use as my on camera monitor. It cost me 1200 and it a great monitor but it's not OLED and the specs on the O7Q are much better. Plus the O7Q is a recorder.
The "high cost propriety storage" is priced almost exactly the same per GB as conventional Sd cards. So I'm also going to disagree there also.
Out of the box the O7Q will be able to record Hd video in 10bit DPX stacks and eventually in prores. Beyond that there are upgrade options which are available if you need them. They are camera specific and a lot of time and research has gone into making each one work seamlessly with each camera, so yeah they are going to cost something. You pay for quality and you pay for customer service and you pay for peoples time. They seem like a company that wants to get this thing right and they're taking the time and effort to do that. Having a product that works the way its supposed to and that's backed up by people who will address it if it doesn't is something I'm very willing to pay for. They have really lowered the price point for a monitor with these kind of capabilites when you look at it.
iconoclast6
Member
Upon reflection, I'd have to agree with waefre. The 7Q is, indeed, actually responsive to the masses interested in the early adoption of 4K willing to pay premium prices. An impressive feature set for sure, but we won't know yet if it's a premium product. Cost doesn't make a premium product, as performance, features and price yields it's own reward to customers and manufacturers.
The FS700 is a quality product, ergonomics aside, I own one myself. But it's also an 8bit, AVCHD piece of kit that requires several thousand more dollars to reach it's promised potential. Sadly, we're not surprised by Sony, as they have a history of eating their young shortly after birth. Indeed, a new Sony 4k camera is priced at $4.5k is simply further evidence that early adopters pay a higher price that may not yield premium performance and features.
Seeing lesser cost products, like goPro and BlackMagic over-deliver on features unavailable in higher cost products, is a huge "tell" on how some manufactures over-leverage their position. Hey, I love capitalism, and I'm happy it works both ways. I'm glad there is competition and that simply discussing these issues helps competition. Canon & Nikon are already losing market share because of similar mis-calculations. For my money, I'll bet that 7Q storage won't be proprietary for long and that it will be available in different capacities. Thankfully, there will be other monitor/recorders in the market, besides Odyssey. Don't forget Juan Martinez mentioned other unnamed manufacturers to partner with Sony for the FS700 4K feature.
I'll also bet that the subscription pricing thing will be short lived, because early adopters won't represent the volume available ... without it.
We're happy that Odyssey is pushing the envelope, but the right now market for premium performance features and price has us with ProRes, 10 bit and non-proprietary storage. And yes, we too paid big bucks for monitors (Marshall, Ikan, SmallHD) that don't hold a candle to the $1295 Samuari Blade. Simple monitors are history now. If you aren't producing a premium product that also records, you're gonna be out of business. By the time the volume users demand and embrace 4K, we expect to have a choice of competing premium products, performance and features at market prices.
In the meantime, we eagerly applaud the courage of early adopters who pay premium prices on behalf of the rest of us. Frankly, if we had the $$ we'd do it too. As such, anxiously awaiting the real world 7Q reviews...
The FS700 is a quality product, ergonomics aside, I own one myself. But it's also an 8bit, AVCHD piece of kit that requires several thousand more dollars to reach it's promised potential. Sadly, we're not surprised by Sony, as they have a history of eating their young shortly after birth. Indeed, a new Sony 4k camera is priced at $4.5k is simply further evidence that early adopters pay a higher price that may not yield premium performance and features.
Seeing lesser cost products, like goPro and BlackMagic over-deliver on features unavailable in higher cost products, is a huge "tell" on how some manufactures over-leverage their position. Hey, I love capitalism, and I'm happy it works both ways. I'm glad there is competition and that simply discussing these issues helps competition. Canon & Nikon are already losing market share because of similar mis-calculations. For my money, I'll bet that 7Q storage won't be proprietary for long and that it will be available in different capacities. Thankfully, there will be other monitor/recorders in the market, besides Odyssey. Don't forget Juan Martinez mentioned other unnamed manufacturers to partner with Sony for the FS700 4K feature.
I'll also bet that the subscription pricing thing will be short lived, because early adopters won't represent the volume available ... without it.
We're happy that Odyssey is pushing the envelope, but the right now market for premium performance features and price has us with ProRes, 10 bit and non-proprietary storage. And yes, we too paid big bucks for monitors (Marshall, Ikan, SmallHD) that don't hold a candle to the $1295 Samuari Blade. Simple monitors are history now. If you aren't producing a premium product that also records, you're gonna be out of business. By the time the volume users demand and embrace 4K, we expect to have a choice of competing premium products, performance and features at market prices.
In the meantime, we eagerly applaud the courage of early adopters who pay premium prices on behalf of the rest of us. Frankly, if we had the $$ we'd do it too. As such, anxiously awaiting the real world 7Q reviews...
Last edited:
anchoricex
Member
I truthfully would've loved some sort of recorder that was smaller and wasn't a monitor. The 7" is huge and for me kills the ergonomics of ever possibly shooting cinematic handheld raw without having to buy a Red camera. The top mount of the red monitors makes it possible, the 7 inch monitor plus the giant fs700 is just weirdly enormous.
Kyron
Well-known member
The Odyssey 7q only weighs .54kg's and 2 ssd's couldn't be more than 100 grams each.
The true test of portability is still out of my reach (My pre-order won't be filled till end of December) but I think, although large, the monitor could be configured for run and gun pretty well.
In regards to Red vs Fs700 portability -
Fs700 body is 1.6kg's
Scarlett body is 2.2kg's
Scarlett is about 4.8kg with monitor, battery, lens mount and SSD
Fs700 is about 3.8kg's for the same configuration including the Odyssey 7q + 2 ssd's. 1 kg lighter than the Scarlett.
(no lenses added to these figures)
I get the monitor is bigger than the Scarlett's, but the overall weight is not, and when it comes down to it, with a well placed magic arm (the fs700 has a couple of mounting points to choose from out of the box) then there's really nothing hampering you from hand held shots with far superior peaking, colour tools, exposure tools and a nice size screen to compose shots with. But in the end, it's all down to taste! I go down this road with the full knowledge that comparative to the fs700, the 7Q is quite a beast in size!
The true test of portability is still out of my reach (My pre-order won't be filled till end of December) but I think, although large, the monitor could be configured for run and gun pretty well.
In regards to Red vs Fs700 portability -
Fs700 body is 1.6kg's
Scarlett body is 2.2kg's
Scarlett is about 4.8kg with monitor, battery, lens mount and SSD
Fs700 is about 3.8kg's for the same configuration including the Odyssey 7q + 2 ssd's. 1 kg lighter than the Scarlett.
(no lenses added to these figures)
I get the monitor is bigger than the Scarlett's, but the overall weight is not, and when it comes down to it, with a well placed magic arm (the fs700 has a couple of mounting points to choose from out of the box) then there's really nothing hampering you from hand held shots with far superior peaking, colour tools, exposure tools and a nice size screen to compose shots with. But in the end, it's all down to taste! I go down this road with the full knowledge that comparative to the fs700, the 7Q is quite a beast in size!
I came up with these 2 rigs since I am a handheld fanatic (mostly use #1 since it's super minimal). Will work amazing with the 7Q, especially since I plan to power the monitor + FS700 using the small Swit Battery with DC outlet which goes right into the FS700 battery port. I used to just handhold the camera barebones, but I now I really prefer this setup since it's so light.
Here's the blog
http://www.builtbyugene.com/blog/blog1_rigs.html
I think the 7Q is much more ergonomic than Sony's solution (which massively increases the footprint of the camera). The 7Q isn't much larger than a normal 7.4" monitor, and I've been using one of those with great frequency in the past year.
Back to the OP's argument though, if you want 4k raw on the FS700 please take a moment to pop over to the Sony forum and ask Sony to let Convergent enable 4k raw on the 7Q!
http://community.sony.com/t5/FS700/...dyssey-7Q-with-the-FS700-R/td-p/227203/page/2
Back to the OP's argument though, if you want 4k raw on the FS700 please take a moment to pop over to the Sony forum and ask Sony to let Convergent enable 4k raw on the 7Q!
http://community.sony.com/t5/FS700/...dyssey-7Q-with-the-FS700-R/td-p/227203/page/2
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Matt,
I greatly appreciate your post.
Dear Iconoclast6,
I respect your opinions.
I wish we had ProRes ready today. We are working full time to get it ready as soon as possible.
Dear Friends,
The Odyssey7Q does have a 7.7" Diagonal OLED, which makes it bigger than a 5" monitor, but you get many benefits for this larger monitor.
But, the weight is only 1.2 Pounds without SSD's, and 1.46 Pounds with two 256 GB SSD's.
When you have a chance, please see the Odyssey7Q in person, and check out the color fidelity.
I just spent the last two days doing that at an event in Atlanta.
The Odyssey7Q will be at various booths at CCW Expo in New York November 13 and 14, 2014.
On the SSD's, it is very important, for professional use, that our SSD's gracefully handle loss of power while recording.
Most SSD's do not have proper power protection, which can cause the loss of the footage being recorded just before the lost of power, plus the loss of all footage on the SSD.
And yes, our SSD's cost more than some low-cost SSD's, but this is not a comparison of equals.
Our SSD's, to the best of our knowledge, are the lowest cost of any professional recording media, based on dollars per Gigabyte. Some moderate cost CompactFlash cards are roughly the same cost while premium CompactFlash cards cost more per Gigabyte.
I hope this helps.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
I greatly appreciate your post.
Dear Iconoclast6,
I respect your opinions.
I wish we had ProRes ready today. We are working full time to get it ready as soon as possible.
Dear Friends,
The Odyssey7Q does have a 7.7" Diagonal OLED, which makes it bigger than a 5" monitor, but you get many benefits for this larger monitor.
But, the weight is only 1.2 Pounds without SSD's, and 1.46 Pounds with two 256 GB SSD's.
When you have a chance, please see the Odyssey7Q in person, and check out the color fidelity.
I just spent the last two days doing that at an event in Atlanta.
The Odyssey7Q will be at various booths at CCW Expo in New York November 13 and 14, 2014.
On the SSD's, it is very important, for professional use, that our SSD's gracefully handle loss of power while recording.
Most SSD's do not have proper power protection, which can cause the loss of the footage being recorded just before the lost of power, plus the loss of all footage on the SSD.
And yes, our SSD's cost more than some low-cost SSD's, but this is not a comparison of equals.
Our SSD's, to the best of our knowledge, are the lowest cost of any professional recording media, based on dollars per Gigabyte. Some moderate cost CompactFlash cards are roughly the same cost while premium CompactFlash cards cost more per Gigabyte.
I hope this helps.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
Thanks again Dan for the update. I'm wondering about a couple of things.
1- Is lack of 4K Raw form the FS700 a design issue or due to Sony not making it available? Is it possible in the future?
2 - Is there possibility of a eyepiece adapter for the 7Q so it can become an EVF and useable outside?
Lenny
1- Is lack of 4K Raw form the FS700 a design issue or due to Sony not making it available? Is it possible in the future?
2 - Is there possibility of a eyepiece adapter for the 7Q so it can become an EVF and useable outside?
Lenny
dmitrizigany
Veteran
This has been discussed ad nauseam... where have you been hiding?
It's Sony's licensing, not a technical/design issue.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
While it is certainly technically possible to make an eyepiece assembly for the Odyssey7Q, I must caution that it would be prohibitively massive and expensive.