fs700 Newbie questions!

[Neutral]

Hi everyone,

New to the forum and new to the fs700.
I come from a DSLR back round and I was itching to upgrade to something. What i felt was holding me back with DSLR's was the lack of dynamic range, soft image, high resolution slowmo, and terrible low light performance. I worked out a business deal which thankfully allowed me to keep an fs700 starting a few months ago.
I've been travelling ever since I got it so I have managed to get a ton of practice shooting with it in different environments. Just no time to learn the complicated technical aspects of the camera.
I tour for a living so I shoot a lot of shows/concerts. And other than that I mainly do music videos.

There's some questions I put together that hopefully some of you can help me understand:
-First off, the low light performance so far is terrible. Or at least sub par to what I was expecting. I shoot in venues a lot where it's dark unless there's really good lights. And I couldn't seem to get even semi-decent looking low light shots. Everything is just too grainy. One of the reasons I got this camera was because I heard the low light performance was very good, not outstanding but good. So I figured I must be doing something wrong.

-I've also been shooting with slog2 when Im outdoors or when there's a lot of available lighting. And there's ridiculous amounts of noise in the shadows and mid tones. Which made me question if there's something wrong with my camera. Or is this normal? This is while shooting outdoors in sunlight with the ISO all the way down (2000).

-This is probably a dumb question but I can't figure out how to use the histogram. How do you properly expose with this camera? When you hit the histogram button twice a yellow line appears. Is anything over that considered over-exposed?

-Battery life: Before purchasing the camera I read in a review that the larger batteries last extremely long. Like upwards of 7-8 hours. I bought one off amazon and it lasts longer than the smaller stock on that comes with the camera but definitely not as long as I was lead to believe. Is this just simply untrue or are there different batteries out there that last longer?

-I shoot on the fly a lot when Im on tour. Spontaneous things happen so I I have to adjust settings quickly. One thing that is really frustrating is when hitting S&Q mode the shutter speed always changes depending on what I've been doing. Is there any way to have S&Q 60fps always be at 120shutter speed and S&Q 240fps always be at 500 shutter speed? That would save me a lot of time if there is a way.

-Zebras. I understand the concept but I've never really used zebras. Someone please explain how to properly use them on this camera.

-Picture profiles: Probably the most important thing. I have a lot to learn about this. From what I've read slog2 actually degrades the image substantially, but I suppose it comes down to preference and what looks good to your eye. From what I understand it's best to understand how to adjust the gamma curves and all the picture profile settings in order to get the image you want. I know NOTHING about these settings and it's all very complicated to me. If this is the correct way to go could someone link me a website or explain the settings so I can start learning how to adjust them properly?

I have a lot to learn and im eager to use this camera to it's full potential. Kind of frustrating right now that I'm not getting what I want out of it at the moment, and since I have a few weeks before I leave for tour again I want to learn as much as I can. If anyone could provide any help or advice to these questions/issues it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[Jim Ritscher]

To answer your questions fully would require a short book. I'll touch on a couple. Histogram and zebra apply to any professional camera, so you can search on those to find information. As I recall, if you search on "Art Adams video" you will find some articles about histogram and exposure. If you go to abelcine.com you'll find some videos about FS700 picture profiles. Regarding battery, you bought the official Sony battery or some "equivalent one?" Some aftermarket batteries are a lot better than others.

 

[alaskacameradude]

Low light, depends on what lens you are using quite a bit. The FS700 is pretty good in low light, but to really take advantage of that, you need a fast lens. I shoot northern lights with the sigma 18-35.

S-Log2 is not a lot of help when recording internally (8bit). To really take advantage of it, you need the Odyssey 7q.

Zebra and Histogram are something any professional video shooter knows how to use. If you are a still photographer or DSLR guy, welcome to the world of motion! Do a little online research and you can find out all about how to use them. A bit of a subject too long for me to describe here, but they are basically tools to let you know what parts of an image are exposed at what levels.

Picture profiles are all over the net. Abel cine had some for the FS700. It's not as 'experimental' as the FS100 was. With the FS700 if you are recording internally, one of the Cinegammas is all you need. I use cine1 inside and cine4 outside. You can tweak more if you want, but it's not needed nearly as much as it was with the FS100.

 

[Neutral]

Thanks for the reply guys.
I understand how histograms work, I used them with DSLR's. I just can't quite figure out the fs700 histogram. I've shot stuff that seemed ok in the histogram however was completely over exposed when i pull it up on my computer. If the meter is hitting the right side of the histogram is anything past that over-exposed? What about the yellow line that appears on it when pressing the button twice? Is anything past that line over-exposed?

Regarding zebars, I assume anything that's shaded in is considered over exposed, but I don't understand the values in the zebra settings. When you change the value it changes what is considered over-exposed correct? So basically, how do I expose correctly? Or how do I know I'm exposing correctly?

When I was referring to the picture profiles I was talking about black level, gamma, black gamma, knee. All that stuff. You think there is no need to tweak these settings?

 

[Colinelves]

Okay, let me take a stab at these....

-First off, the low light performance so far is terrible. Or at least sub par to what I was expecting. I shoot in venues a lot where it's dark unless there's really good lights. And I couldn't seem to get even semi-decent looking low light shots. Everything is just too grainy. One of the reasons I got this camera was because I heard the low light performance was very good, not outstanding but good. So I figured I must be doing something wrong.

As said previously you need a fast lens to leverage the low light performance, the kit lens (18-200) is not a fast lens. F1.4 or F1.2 is fast. If you need a zoom look into the Canon/Sigma 24-70 and 70-200 f2.8 EF lenses with a Metabones speed booster. That covers most of the same range (albeit across two lenses) but requires 1/4 the amount of light.

The other thing to look at is your gammas. As you're realising your gamma selection makes a big difference in terms of noise in the shadows and mids. In my experience, if you use Cinegamma 1 you can push the camera to ISO 3200 without getting too much noise.

-I've also been shooting with slog2 when Im outdoors or when there's a lot of available lighting. And there's ridiculous amounts of noise in the shadows and mid tones. Which made me question if there's something wrong with my camera. Or is this normal? This is while shooting outdoors in sunlight with the ISO all the way down (2000).

As Alaska says Slog2 is a bad idea unless you're recording to a 7Q in 4KtoHD or you love its low contrast look. Basically, recording 8bit internal means you cannot grade the footage too heavily or it looks terrible. This means you need the camera to record an image as close to the one you want to deliver as possible. Which means picking the right picture profile. Slog2 is unlikely to be the right picture profile. One reason for this is that ISO 2000 is not a good base ISO for this camera if you want clean shadow areas. Slog2 gives you a lot of DR, which can be useful in some high contrast/bright sunshine conditions, but it achieves this high DR by pushing the shadows a lot which means noisy images.

-This is probably a dumb question but I can't figure out how to use the histogram. How do you properly expose with this camera? When you hit the histogram button twice a yellow line appears. Is anything over that considered over-exposed?

I'm probably not one to ask as I've never bothered trying to understand how to expose with a histogram since, far as I can tell, it provides very little useful information in terms of exposure as it tells you nothing about the exposure of the individual elements on screen, just the image as a whole. I mean, you're just supposed to balance it or something, right? Well, whatever. To answer your question, the yellow line represents the point the Zebra is set to. Bits over that line indicate some of your image is brighter than your Zebra level, whatever that is. If you don't understand zebras, I'd ignore it.

One thing that is worth mentioning, however, is that you may be unintentionally losing a lot of image data if you edit on a PC vs a Mac. Basically some of the gamma settings (Cine 1 and Cine 4 for example) make use of what is called 'super' blacks and 'super' whites. These are exposure levels above and below the 'legal' video limits. Specifically in NTSC video land 'white' is defined at IRE 100 and 'black' is defined as IRE 16. However the camera is able to record values 0-16 as 'blacker than black' and values 100-109 as 'whiter than white' and, if your NLE accepts these levels, you'll get to see these extra tones (since they basically reset white and black to 109 and 0 respectively). Unfortunately as white is supposed to be 100 some NLEs instead choke these values so everything about 100 is just blanket white and below 16 is blackout black. What this means is that you end up losing a lot of highlight and shadow detail unnecessarily (its there, but you can't see it). The end result of which is generally images that look overexposed but aren't (if you were able to see those extra highlight values).

To see if this is a problem, try using Cine 2 and Cine 3 instead - these gammas are near identical to the Cine 1 and Cine 4 gammas (respectively) but they just pack the same info into the legal range, so side step this issue.

-Battery life: Before purchasing the camera I read in a review that the larger batteries last extremely long. Like upwards of 7-8 hours. I bought one off amazon and it lasts longer than the smaller stock on that comes with the camera but definitely not as long as I was lead to believe. Is this just simply untrue or are there different batteries out there that last longer?

Yes. There are different batteries out there that last longer. A genuine Sony Infolithium battery charged on a genuine Sony info lithium charger lasts a good while. Other brands also last a good long but some other brands don't - I'd suggest looking at some solid known brands if you're not getting the time you need. (Swit and Hawkwoods have a good rep), or just fork out the extra for the Sony ones. It might also depend upon the settings on the camera - having it permanently in Super slow mo end trigger will drain the battery faster than recording regular speed.

-I shoot on the fly a lot when Im on tour. Spontaneous things happen so I I have to adjust settings quickly. One thing that is really frustrating is when hitting S&Q mode the shutter speed always changes depending on what I've been doing. Is there any way to have S&Q 60fps always be at 120shutter speed and S&Q 240fps always be at 500 shutter speed? That would save me a lot of time if there is a way.

Nope, sorry. It's something s*%t we have to live with.

-Zebras. I understand the concept but I've never really used zebras. Someone please explain how to properly use them on this camera.

You set the zebra level in the 'monitor' menu (it's icon looks like a monitor). The number represents a particular IRE video level, any part of the image that is brighter than the level set will show the zebra pattern.

So the idea is that you set the zebras at a level you want to match or to avoid. For example, if you're filming white people you might set it at 70 as white people's skin generally look okay exposed a touch under IRE 70. So if you set your exposure so the zebras only just start appearing on your white people's faces then you know they'll look okay when you get into the edit suite.

If you're worried about over exposing stuff you might set it at 100 or 109, then you set your exposure so that you are exposing just below the point where the zebras appear on the image - that way you know you're retaining all the detail in the highlights (alternatively you may decide to leave some areas blown out since they'd be white anyway, like reflections of the sun on shiny objects, in which case you use the Zebras to intelligently inform you which bits of the image a featureless white blobs).

i.e. the zebras are an exposure tool that tell you what bits of the image are being exposed above your desired level. If you're over exposing lots I'd recommend you set it at 100 or 109. Going back to the histogram, and that funny little line, if you set it to 100 or 109 then, yes, if you have bars past the yellow line, you're over exposing parts of the image.

I tend to expose using Zebras as they tell me what I need to know: bit of the image is at this exposure level.

-Picture profiles: Probably the most important thing. I have a lot to learn about this. From what I've read slog2 actually degrades the image substantially, but I suppose it comes down to preference and what looks good to your eye. From what I understand it's best to understand how to adjust the gamma curves and all the picture profile settings in order to get the image you want. I know NOTHING about these settings and it's all very complicated to me. If this is the correct way to go could someone link me a website or explain the settings so I can start learning how to adjust them properly?

Just find some custom profiles on the net you like and stick with them - it's hard to go wrong with that method. Abel Cine have a bunch (I like AB range and the AB_EOS ones are good if trying to match a 5D, or you like the 5D look) just google 'Abel Cine FS700 profiles'. Noah Yoan Vogel and Alaster Chapman also have popular profiles.

Any other questions, feel free to ask!

 

[gsafarek]

I find myself in similar situation as Neutral. I have read tons of articles, forum posts, many of them your posts, but it is overwhelming for me. I have so far worked with dSLR-s (I am photographer turned videographer), but now I have big challenge for a nature film and I got Sony FS700 WITH Oddyssey 7q for that purpose. My biggest concern is the workflow and proper exposure – I really wouldn’t like to end up with bat footage after several months of shooting.

Regarding huge file size of RAW and costs of (and backup) my idea is the following:
to shoot mostly 4k2HD (directly in Oddyssey 7q); 4k RAW for which I would convert to Prores in Resolve I would use for very valuable-once-in-a-lifetime (future proofing), costly and contrasty (to have as much data as possible in case of bad exposition) scenes I will film with; and slow motion (120/240fps) in 2k. What do you think of that?

What is your workflow, from camera to grading? I will not grade myself, but still, it is important to have a good workflow and to hand over properly exposed and consistent footage to colorists. Also, I’d like to grade some footage for testing.

WORKFLOW 4K/2K?
RAW to Prores in Resolve then editing in NLE (I use Premiere) then grading and other corrections in After effects (I used Colorista2 so far, but open to other ideas)?
Where and when should I apply LUT? Where and when should I grade? Is it better to grade RAW in Resolve or Prores later?

WORKFLOW 4K2HD?
I obviously avoid Resolve for RAW conversion, but is it better to grade in Resolve than in AE. Should I apply LUT to 4k2HD, as it has s-log2?

Very important - what is the best way properly expose when unable to meter with grey/white card or light meter. I have zebras, false colour and waveform on Oddyssey. I am aware of importance of slight over exposition by a stop or so to avoid noise, but also protect highlights from being too plasticky. Should I have Odyssey’s LUT turned on or off (just for monitoring purpose) or base the exposition on flat s-log2 picture? Does 4k2HD differ from this approach? Needles to say, I need consistent footage.

Thanks in advance, Goran!

 

[Colinelves]

I find myself in similar situation as Neutral. I have read tons of articles, forum posts, many of them your posts, but it is overwhelming for me. I have so far worked with dSLR-s (I am photographer turned videographer), but now I have big challenge for a nature film and I got Sony FS700 WITH Oddyssey 7q for that purpose. My biggest concern is the workflow and proper exposure – I really wouldn’t like to end up with bat footage after several months of shooting.

Regarding huge file size of RAW and costs of (and backup) my idea is the following:
to shoot mostly 4k2HD (directly in Oddyssey 7q); 4k RAW for which I would convert to Prores in Resolve I would use for very valuable-once-in-a-lifetime (future proofing), costly and contrasty (to have as much data as possible in case of bad exposition) scenes I will film with; and slow motion (120/240fps) in 2k. What do you think of that?

What is your workflow, from camera to grading? I will not grade myself, but still, it is important to have a good workflow and to hand over properly exposed and consistent footage to colorists. Also, I’d like to grade some footage for testing.

WORKFLOW 4K/2K?
RAW to Prores in Resolve then editing in NLE (I use Premiere) then grading and other corrections in After effects (I used Colorista2 so far, but open to other ideas)?
Where and when should I apply LUT? Where and when should I grade? Is it better to grade RAW in Resolve or Prores later?

WORKFLOW 4K2HD?
I obviously avoid Resolve for RAW conversion, but is it better to grade in Resolve than in AE. Should I apply LUT to 4k2HD, as it has s-log2?

Very important - what is the best way properly expose when unable to meter with grey/white card or light meter. I have zebras, false colour and waveform on Oddyssey. I am aware of importance of slight over exposition by a stop or so to avoid noise, but also protect highlights from being too plasticky. Should I have Odyssey’s LUT turned on or off (just for monitoring purpose) or base the exposition on flat s-log2 picture? Does 4k2HD differ from this approach? Needles to say, I need consistent footage.

Thanks in advance, Goran!

If you're shooting with the Odyssey 7Q you're in a much better situation that shooting internally as there will always be a lot more latitude in terms of grading and so can be a lot less careful than Neutral needs to be.

When it comes to exposure - I find the False colour and waveform monitor on the Odyssey are invaluable - they tell me exactly what I need to know: which bits of the image are over exposed/hitting white clip (they hit the top of the waveform or are Red in false colour) and which bits are dangerously under exposed (they're in that fat, noisy strip at the bottom of the waveform/are purple in the False colour), as I'm averse to noise I tend to be more ready to lose some highlight detail to open up the shadows.

If you want a simple approach, set the Zebras to 106% and try and expose to just below them coming on (unless your main subject is heavily in shadow, in which case, if you can't see it on the monitor, you'll need to open up!) but that's hardly a consistent approach!

When shooting docs I rely a lot on the monitor itself to reassure me I'm getting the images I need: It's a very good monitor, so if it looks good on there, I know I'll be fine. If you really want a brainless approach, apply the Rec 709 LUT and expose the mids to look good on that. Given that there is so much headroom in the Slog2 that's recorder you can be pretty certain you're not blowing anything out (and you can tap the LUT off to double check if you're worried). Having said that, I'm a bit averse to noise myself so I tend to deliberately over expose the 709 LUT (i.e. you can be less sure you're relying on noisy shadows) safe in the knowledge that I've got the latitude to bring it back to where I want it in the grade.

If you seriously want to avoid nose, expose the raw slog2 (no LUT) to look good. Then you'll be consistent (but probably will lose a lot of your highlight latitude).

If you want consistent exposure then you'll need a to set a reference point using either zebras or one of the false colour colours. Technically white skin tones should be exposed at 48% in slog2 or 70% with the 709 LUT enabled (yellow in false colour), if you want to consistently over expose by a stop, put them at 60%. If you're not shooting white people then you need to use another reference point.

In terms of work flow:

For 4K2HD I shoot slog2 (obviously) and you can edit from that. In the grade, if you want to add a LUT then you can use the standard 1D Slog2 LUT (the Sony 3D ones don't work so great, they produce odd noise and colour casts as they assume you're using an F55 with it's much wider colour gamut) although I find the best results come from using ACES colour science in Resolve with an Slog2 IDT and Rec709 or sRGB ODT.

If you're not wanting to grade in Resolve (or any other ACES compliant system) you might actually be better of just grading the slog2 yourself rather than using the 1D LUT as it looks a bit rubbish in my opinion.

In terms of the Raw - create one-light grades using Clermond/Paul's suggested settings in Resolve to get a nice gradable image that retains a lot of the DR and grade ability of Raw (using the Camera Raw to make exposure adjustments if needed) but bear in mind you won't be able to use the slog2 LUT as this might look right but it doesn't strictly match slog2 so the LUT does odd things.