fs700 high iso footage from external recorder
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paulcurtis
Veteran
The noise is much higher with an external recorder, the AVCHD denoises the footage before compression and then the compression itself hides more noise. The external recorder (depending on compression) will preserve the true noise which could be denoised in post. The external recorder does preserve the true noise of the sensor.
When i'm in front of some footage later on i will see if i can post a comparison.
cheers
paul
cuervo
Veteran
You'll be hard pressed to see much difference between the AVCHD natively recorded in the FS700 and the MPEG2 220Mbps footage recorded on a nanoflash. The only real advantages of recording onto the Nanoflash are:
1-it's easier to transcode than the AVCHD, and
2-the 4:2:2 color space recorded by the Nanoflash is more forgiving when apply color corrections. But, if you're transcoding AVCHD, anyway, you can go to a 4:2:2 colorspace and gain the same advantage.
1-it's easier to transcode than the AVCHD, and
2-the 4:2:2 color space recorded by the Nanoflash is more forgiving when apply color corrections. But, if you're transcoding AVCHD, anyway, you can go to a 4:2:2 colorspace and gain the same advantage.
paul: thank you. i'm just curious about how the noise looks on external. if it looks organic, i probably would prefer it to forced denoising.
cuervo: thanks. yeah, i've seen that generally the AVCHD does very well, to the extent that it's generally impossible to tell apart from external recordings. but most tests i've seen have been of low-iso (and static) scenes, so i'm curious about how noise fares at high iso.
also, on the fs100 i shot a scene of workers resting under leaves rustling and being blown by occasional heavy wind. very high contrast (it was a tree in the middle of a desert at midday), and lots of unpredictable movement obviously. the AVCHD completely broke down. otherwise it would've been a very nice moment. it was that experience that made me contemplate an external recorder. unfortunately the fs100 can't trigger record via the proprietary sony hdmi timecode. but the fs700 has sdi, so i'm reconsidering.
cuervo: thanks. yeah, i've seen that generally the AVCHD does very well, to the extent that it's generally impossible to tell apart from external recordings. but most tests i've seen have been of low-iso (and static) scenes, so i'm curious about how noise fares at high iso.
also, on the fs100 i shot a scene of workers resting under leaves rustling and being blown by occasional heavy wind. very high contrast (it was a tree in the middle of a desert at midday), and lots of unpredictable movement obviously. the AVCHD completely broke down. otherwise it would've been a very nice moment. it was that experience that made me contemplate an external recorder. unfortunately the fs100 can't trigger record via the proprietary sony hdmi timecode. but the fs700 has sdi, so i'm reconsidering.
hammerhorror
Well-known member
Unfortunately the FS700's SDI output does not trigger record on external recorders either. It is missing the embedded flags in the SDI stream. Hopefully a future firmware update will fix this.
You can set the external recorder to record when it senses moving time code, but this will only work when the camera is in "Record Run" mode not "Free Run".
Wow. Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't realized that obviously. I'm looking up the existing threads about this.
paulcurtis
Veteran
I should be able to post something later but yes the noise is 'more organic' for want of a better description, you get better and cleaner channels in the external version too. I also compared DNxHD with uncompressed. Yes uncompressed was different but not by enough to warrant the extra size.
However you would need to work with the external footage to get the best out of it and by that i mean if you eyeball the AVCHD it looks pretty good, it appears cleaner etc,. but it's not really - just been heavily processed.
As you say you can break AVCHD quite easily with a lot of detailed motion, either within the scene or whilst moving the camera. This is mostly an issue if you are doing something with the footage afterwards.
I also have a theory that the way the AVCHD is pre processing is adding to an issue that some people have regarding a problem with the motion rendering of the footage from the FS series. I notice that as you begin to move, the way it overexposes on a pan can cause a small flash of brightness which lends a kind of stutter to the move. I don't believe this is as apparent in the uncompressed and i'm guessing it's a factor of how the AVCHD is processing inbetween frames.
So whilst not easily apparent there are benefits to external recording in some cases
As for triggering i did try to SDI up the shuttle with the camera but have no idea what kind of connectors were on the shuttle, neither my gaffer nor myself have seen anything similar and we were in the middle of typical set chaos to do much about it. It's disappointing if the shuttles can't be triggered externally. Hitting record manually was a massive PITA, especially the syncing of footage together afterwards.
I'm also unsure what happens to the shuttles with super slow mo. Certainly it won't record if the 700 is set to 1080p, there's no video signal picked up. But if you set it to 1080i it does pick the signal, however i'm not totally convinced that it's recording p, i have a horrible feeling that the camera is running 50p to the LCD and the recording is picking up each frame as a set of fields. I've not been able to get to that footage yet to double check. I know that i have it on the AVCHD version as a back up though.
hope this helps
paul
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I'm shooting a feature currently with 2 x Shuttles, and not finding any issues with triggering two recorders manualy.... my testing shows a real world improvment in images with the external recorders.... you need to test for your self, but i caution you to complete the test through to a final grade tho, that's where the external recorders rise above the internal, you will miss the point if you only look at the camera orignal images, when pulling secondaries the diffrences become clear.
Actor's aggrements preclude me from sending on any footage, but we haev shot three big scenes with nothing but a laptop and candles... here's a snap my AC grabbed the other night of my lighting set-up, looks great on a 16 foot screen with the external recorders;
don't try this without loads of testing!
d
Actor's aggrements preclude me from sending on any footage, but we haev shot three big scenes with nothing but a laptop and candles... here's a snap my AC grabbed the other night of my lighting set-up, looks great on a 16 foot screen with the external recorders;
don't try this without loads of testing!
d
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paulcurtis
Veteran
Dermot, hope you're well. Two shuttles as well!
Are you running DNxHD or uncompressed. I believe running DNxHD kills the battery life of them, we'd end up juicing them up during setups and even being on AC whenever possible. Are you running 700s via SDI, because i couldn't trigger via HDMI for the life of me. If so then what type of cable are you using?
Anyway, i'd second everything you say about the difference being apparent in the grade. I've been reviewing some footage to substantiate my previous comment but it seems the external recorder is actually a little less noisy than the internal, at least on the shots i've compared. I distinctly saw some really noisy DNxHD footage compared to the AVCHD when copying over. So i will have to hunt down the specific files i saw.
Are you doing any super slow mo? I've found an issue with the shuttles and recording super slow mo. They don't. I thought by switching to 1080i output (which on the 100 produced perfect progressive files) would allow me to capture the video data but they've come through interlaced. I think that each progressive frame has been output/recorded as a field. So 50p -> 50i throwing away half the data. If you have the camera set to 1080p then it won't pick up a signal from the 700 to record. Perhaps i just never found the right combination to shoot with but a warning there...
cheers
paul
Are you running DNxHD or uncompressed. I believe running DNxHD kills the battery life of them, we'd end up juicing them up during setups and even being on AC whenever possible. Are you running 700s via SDI, because i couldn't trigger via HDMI for the life of me. If so then what type of cable are you using?
Anyway, i'd second everything you say about the difference being apparent in the grade. I've been reviewing some footage to substantiate my previous comment but it seems the external recorder is actually a little less noisy than the internal, at least on the shots i've compared. I distinctly saw some really noisy DNxHD footage compared to the AVCHD when copying over. So i will have to hunt down the specific files i saw.
Are you doing any super slow mo? I've found an issue with the shuttles and recording super slow mo. They don't. I thought by switching to 1080i output (which on the 100 produced perfect progressive files) would allow me to capture the video data but they've come through interlaced. I think that each progressive frame has been output/recorded as a field. So 50p -> 50i throwing away half the data. If you have the camera set to 1080p then it won't pick up a signal from the 700 to record. Perhaps i just never found the right combination to shoot with but a warning there...
cheers
paul
Hey Paul,
It's been a long day, so quick notes;
- I have three BMD's (A-cam/B-cam/spare), so far have not needed to pull the spare out of the case
- I'm recording DNx inside a Qt wrapper
- Shooting fs100's not 700's as i need / want the outer edge of low light & don't need highspeed for this show (the alternative offered by the producer was to shoot on Epic's, i tested both and the fs100 was clearly a mile ahead in low light)
- The Swit block you see on the B cam keeps the BMD running for days, the biggest day so far has been 1.5 hr recording on each camera, the bigger Swit Vlok batt on my A cam powers the camera, BMD, & Cineroid, it has a dummy batt to the body and 2x Ptaps, so far it has not dropped below the second bar even when powering everything for a 12 hr day, it's a pre-production one that i managed to pry out of Swit, but i could only get one, as it's the only one they had made
- i'm running HDMI to the recorder and HDSDI from there to video village, split HDMI to the Cineroid, and then HDMI from Cineroid to the AC's 7" mon
It's been a long day, so quick notes;
- I have three BMD's (A-cam/B-cam/spare), so far have not needed to pull the spare out of the case
- I'm recording DNx inside a Qt wrapper
- Shooting fs100's not 700's as i need / want the outer edge of low light & don't need highspeed for this show (the alternative offered by the producer was to shoot on Epic's, i tested both and the fs100 was clearly a mile ahead in low light)
- The Swit block you see on the B cam keeps the BMD running for days, the biggest day so far has been 1.5 hr recording on each camera, the bigger Swit Vlok batt on my A cam powers the camera, BMD, & Cineroid, it has a dummy batt to the body and 2x Ptaps, so far it has not dropped below the second bar even when powering everything for a 12 hr day, it's a pre-production one that i managed to pry out of Swit, but i could only get one, as it's the only one they had made
- i'm running HDMI to the recorder and HDSDI from there to video village, split HDMI to the Cineroid, and then HDMI from Cineroid to the AC's 7" mon
paulcurtis
Veteran
Dermot,
I had the 'epic' choice as well but went for our 700/100 mainly due to cost and lack of contingency backup, for us the difference wasn't going to be that great either.
So are you managing to trigger record on the shuttles via HDMI?
I didn't use external power bricks as the shuttle v1 and uncompressed used to last hours on it's internal battery, just the shuttle 2 and DNxHD sucks the juice out. Never anticipated that. Plus the rig was getting heavy enough without loading yet more on.
What are you using in video village. The one solution i never solved was getting a waveform/vectorscope on an external monitor with a live feed at a reasonable cost.
How long are you shooting for? Good luck!
What lenses are you on? That for me was the big killer, i was on contax zeiss and zeiss ZA zooms but the focus throw on these are typical still lenses. I totally get cinema lens mechanics but was unable to rent for this duration. I don't understand how people use ZF/ZE/EF lenses in full production unless i'm missing something...
(and if i hear fix it in post once more i'll actually hurt someone... just had to buy Nuke X for all the roto, tracking and projection work now... we'll eventually start a making of blog because of the location and approach was fairly unique so would make for interesting reading)
cheers
paul
I had the 'epic' choice as well but went for our 700/100 mainly due to cost and lack of contingency backup, for us the difference wasn't going to be that great either.
So are you managing to trigger record on the shuttles via HDMI?
I didn't use external power bricks as the shuttle v1 and uncompressed used to last hours on it's internal battery, just the shuttle 2 and DNxHD sucks the juice out. Never anticipated that. Plus the rig was getting heavy enough without loading yet more on.
What are you using in video village. The one solution i never solved was getting a waveform/vectorscope on an external monitor with a live feed at a reasonable cost.
How long are you shooting for? Good luck!
What lenses are you on? That for me was the big killer, i was on contax zeiss and zeiss ZA zooms but the focus throw on these are typical still lenses. I totally get cinema lens mechanics but was unable to rent for this duration. I don't understand how people use ZF/ZE/EF lenses in full production unless i'm missing something...
(and if i hear fix it in post once more i'll actually hurt someone... just had to buy Nuke X for all the roto, tracking and projection work now... we'll eventually start a making of blog because of the location and approach was fairly unique so would make for interesting reading)
cheers
paul
Yup.. better places to put the resources = make a better show
No.. Acam roll1 , roll2, Bcam roll1, roll2, is the drill... i have 1st Ac's on both camera's so they roll them, it's flawless, but these guys know what they are doing, no film skool students
I find the ballance works well for handheld with the block on the back, on sticks it's not a deal either way, i ask my AC to pull the 7" mon when i'm handholding, he's good at grabbing the 7" mon with one hand, and the whip with the other ;-)
2 x Sony LMD230W mon's + Ultrascope was the plan, but we left all that behind after day 1, for the most part either i or my AC call stops with our meters, we are careful with sensor reflections, dirt & rain etc, etc... so far we have had no problems when screening rushes & i don't anticipate any, keep the camera clean and dry, handle with care is the drill... spot meters + my eyes cover the rest of it.. i've shot film for decades, so i'm used to no instant feedback
42 days, mostly in Paris, some in Rominia, Budepest, NYC and Vancouver, aside from my trusted AC who came with me, all the crew are Paris based
My main squeezes are a pair of Angenuex 28-70 2.6/2.8 A mount zooms, they stay on the camera's for days on end, AC's can work with them better than about any other stills lenses
filling in the gaps for Acam is Zeiss 16-35, Roiknon 35 & 85, Nikon 50, Zeiss 80-200, for Bcam is Emount 16mm + 12mm coke bottle, TokinaATX 19-35 Nikon 35, 50 & 85, Tamaron 70-210
The weakest link is the pancake 16mm, soft as a fluffy pink sheet of upscale toilet paper until it's at a 5.6, and the focus throw on the short Zeiss
Can't say enough good about the Angenieux mid zooms tho, they are the favs of the AC's followed by the Roikinon's - everything else is a compromise... renting cine lenses was not an option for us either due to budget-vs-shoot length
Love to read your blog, i can't post anything specfic about the show i'm on due to NDA's, even this note was cleared with production first...
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chromeboy007
Well-known member
Is this a problem for the Atomos Ninja/Samurai products, where the picture and recording are done on the monitor unit itself?
Colinelves
Well-known member
Yes. I cannot get the Samurai to time code trigger, but not trigger if set to record run, but it will not trigger when set to free run, even when the Sony record trigger option is set on the recorder.
paulcurtis
Veteran
Dermot,
Similar to the way we worked.
I found at some points that pulling focus was easier with still lenses off the barrel. There was a certain handheld set up where my left hand was braced under the monitor arm and stablised there. Some lenses (CZ 35 f1.4, CZ 28 f2) have very short throws and with the tolerances in the FF units (i had a lanparte and edlekrone) there was enough minute slop that a more precise result was achieved off the barrel. Also you need to be mindful of the torque transferred to the lens mount with a FF and some kind of lens support is essential. I've always been quite shocked at the amount of movement around both the 100 and 700 lens mounts.
I'll reevaluate my lens choices after this although my lens set is out on another feature at the moment.
Interested in the Rokinons, it's a question of focus throw and feeling. I'm looking at Leica R lenses as i believe the mechanics of focus on those are better than the zeiss.
We did try the sigma 19mm e mount because the AF on it was quite smooth. We had that rigged on a steadicam and also a figrig and jib to see if focus was maintained as an option. I've not been able to review that footage yet to see how it went.
Both the 700 and the A99 have face detection and i'm convinced that one day in some cases they may be a workable solution for some shots
42 days sound good, locations sound great.
cheers
paul
Similar to the way we worked.
I found at some points that pulling focus was easier with still lenses off the barrel. There was a certain handheld set up where my left hand was braced under the monitor arm and stablised there. Some lenses (CZ 35 f1.4, CZ 28 f2) have very short throws and with the tolerances in the FF units (i had a lanparte and edlekrone) there was enough minute slop that a more precise result was achieved off the barrel. Also you need to be mindful of the torque transferred to the lens mount with a FF and some kind of lens support is essential. I've always been quite shocked at the amount of movement around both the 100 and 700 lens mounts.
I'll reevaluate my lens choices after this although my lens set is out on another feature at the moment.
Interested in the Rokinons, it's a question of focus throw and feeling. I'm looking at Leica R lenses as i believe the mechanics of focus on those are better than the zeiss.
We did try the sigma 19mm e mount because the AF on it was quite smooth. We had that rigged on a steadicam and also a figrig and jib to see if focus was maintained as an option. I've not been able to review that footage yet to see how it went.
Both the 700 and the A99 have face detection and i'm convinced that one day in some cases they may be a workable solution for some shots
42 days sound good, locations sound great.
cheers
paul
chromeboy007
Well-known member
Thanks. I'm only getting the FS700 now so I have no idea what you are talking about lol!
So can the Samurai record off of the FS700? I have seen it done by people.
Colinelves
Well-known member
Sorry, that's my bad - I wasn't making sense. The Samurai records the normal speed (non-slow mo, non-super slo mo) footage fine. The buffer output from the super-slow mo comes out at 50p or 60p depending upon your internal record setting (24p,30p,60p=60pSSM, 25p,50p=50pSSM) which the Samurai can't record. However it can record 50i/60i so if you set the camera SDI output to interlaced you can record the buffer play out interlaced.
My previous comment was to say that the Samurai does not auto-record if using the SDI trigger, but you can set it to auto-record when it detects rolling time-code - so you can get a sort of auto-record if you're using record run time code.
chromeboy007
Well-known member
Ok thanks. Looks like we might be stuck with Sony products, if even that, for full compatibility.
Colinelves
Well-known member
I think the auto record just requires the record flag to be activated in the SDI feed - which I believe is just a firmware thing - which might come in the firmware update. The 50p/60p recording capability is a data rate thing - the Samurai can't handle the data rate required. Afaik the Nanoflash and pix can't either. The Gemini 4:4:4 can take it, but that costs the same as the camera...