FS700 could film cinema quality like RED footage? (7Q or SONY AXS-R5 RAW recorder)

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Roswelito

New member
Hello,

I´m planning to make a film soon (I´m sorry, my English is not very good) and I have a FS700 upgraded. I´m thinking on get 7Q, but I would know if there is so much diference between Red Scarlet / Red Epic RAW footage and Sony FS700 in 4K/2K RAW mode with 7Q or Sony recorder.

Would it be professional to shoot a film with FS700 4K RAW mode or may it have so many video-ish look? What are the most difference between the footages of each camera if you going film cinema?

Could be possible match RED RAW footage with FS700 RAW footage in color grading without problem?

Thank you!
 
It would be as professional as any other camera in my opinion, provided the cinematographer knows how to shoot and is comfortable with the camera. The FS700 footage I've seen with the 7Q has been very impressive.
 
Hello pulpfiction, I understand what you tell. My question is about technical equipment only, we would have a proffesional cinematographer equipment, so it is not the question.
I have the doubt because all Hollywood Films are made with RED Epic, Arri Alexa or F65, and I would want to know how much difference is between these footage and RAW FS700 footage.

Thanks for your response!
 
From my limited work with FS700 4K raw, but tons of work with Epic and a few MoW's with F55 & Alexa
Compared to RED / Alexa / F55-65 the FS700's DR will be somewhat limited
FS700 shows lower noise than Epic, close to, but not as good as Alexa / F55

i would expect the FS700 to be much more of a huge pile of parts cobbled together with resualting fail points, so even greater care needed on location
 
Roswelito said:
Hello pulpfiction, I understand what you tell. My question is about technical equipment only, we would have a proffesional cinematographer equipment, so it is not the question.
I have the doubt because all Hollywood Films are made with RED Epic, Arri Alexa or F65, and I would want to know how much difference is between these footage and RAW FS700 footage.

Thanks for your response!
Click to expand...

4K raw (Sony recorder) and 2k raw (Odessey 7q) only recently became available on the FS700.
You can always watch this 1 hour plus video for more information...

Presentation on FS700 and RAW
https://vimeo.com/69884277
 
I believe F65 shoots 8K and the RED cameras are doing 5K (and 6K?). Obviously there's gonna be differences. Those cameras are also many times more expensive. But there is a reason the big boys use those cameras.
However, the 4K raw of the FS700 should still be very good. I believe good enough for cinema if all other components are also top of the line.
Just note though, that you cannot shoot 4K raw with the 7Q. To shoot 4K raw you currently need Sony's solution.
The 7Q will do 2K raw and (soon) 4K compressed.
 
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dmitrizigany said:
I believe F65 shoots 8K and the RED cameras are doing 5K (and 6K?). Obviously there's gonna be differences. Those cameras are also many times more expensive. But there is a reason the big boys use those cameras.
However, the 4K raw of the FS700 should still be very good. I believe good enough for cinema if all other components are also top of the line.
Just note though, that you cannot shoot 4K raw with the 7Q. To shoot 4K raw you currently need Sony's solution.
The 7Q will do 2K raw and (soon) 4K compressed.
Click to expand...

The F65 shoots 2x4k, not 8K. So it's 17.7MP instead of 8.8MP, but 8K would be twice that at 35.4MP. It uses a slightly different photosite arrangement.

Without having tested specifically but having seen a number of tests and from my understanding of the cameras (and I own an FS700 and RED Scarlet), I'd say the FS700 is probably generally a better performer than the RED Epic-MX with similar DR and with a lot more sensitivity due to its analog gain options. Should be pretty similar in DR and sensitivity to the F5/F55. F65 definitely has finer noise. Hard to compare to Alexa which seems to have more DR and sensitivity at base gain than any of those mentioned. In any case its a good value for the image quality you get compared to the other options and quite a good balance despite its shortcomings relative to the best cameras. I may be a bit biased though.
 
Thanks everybody for all your responses. I have one doubt relationed about lenses and 4K...what kind of lenses are used with RED / Alexa for Hollywood films? ZEISS Ultra prime? What is the difference about ZEISS Ultra and ZEISS Compact prime?

Thanks again!
 
Many different lenses are used on Hollywood films, most popular primes are probably Master Primes, Panavision Primos and Cooke S4/S5... All incredibly expensive lenses but nice designs.

As for Ultra Primes vs Compact Primes, they are quite different. Ultra Primes have been around longer and were designed for cinema from the ground up, whereas Compact Primes take designs from Zeiss's still lenses and just add a circular aperture and robust housings with well-marked, accurate focus and aperture rings. Ultra primes are designed for S35 imager size, whereas CPs are designed for FF35 size. This means CPs will work on a speedbooster, but if you don't use it on a speedbooster, the wide lenses are quite slow for S35 lenses. Ultra Primes may be better optimized for breathing and flaring and a consistent look between lenses, which are more carefully controlled in cinema lens optical designs. I believe ultra primes only come in PL mount, whereas CPs come in both PL mount and EF mount, which can be handy these days.
 
Even with the add on of 4k raw, the fs700 doesn't come close to the EPIC in terms of Dynamic Range, color rendition, noise, codec, and resolution. It's two different beasts. The best way to decide though, is to test both and see which works best for you from pre-pro threw post.
 
Joncarr said:
Even with the add on of 4k raw, the fs700 doesn't come close to the EPIC in terms of Dynamic Range, color rendition, noise, codec, and resolution. It's two different beasts. The best way to decide though, is to test both and see which works best for you from pre-pro threw post.
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate? Is that based on particular tests or experiences?
 
Joncarr said:
Even with the add on of 4k raw, the fs700 doesn't come close to the EPIC in terms of Dynamic Range, color rendition, noise, codec, and resolution. It's two different beasts. The best way to decide though, is to test both and see which works best for you from pre-pro threw post.
Click to expand...

"Doesn't come close" is a bit of a stretch in this day and age. I really liked your reel as it's definitely better than mine, but I would say the FS700 with 7Q, you can get in the ball park in terms of image quality, especially compared to a non Dragon Epic. If the RED EPIC were an A / A+ of a camera, I would say the FS700 with 7Q would be an B+/A-.

Unfortunately for us, and fortunately for you, those of us on an FS700 can only afford an B+/A- camera. One of the networks I work for just recently bought a RED Epic and I know their budget for an Epic package was north of $90K (That's including some lenses, rigs, monitors, support, etc...). An FS700 + 7Q + a few decent lenses + rig would be under $20K; far, far cheaper than Epic.

For being a small fraction of the price of an Epic, the FS700 + 7Q is a great value. Because of the price difference, it's almost pointless to compare the EPIC to the FS700 because if someone is looking at an FS700 + 7Q, they probably can't even come close to affording an Epic. So while the Epic might be the ultimate camera, the FS700 + 7Q is still pretty dang good for the price and I've been using 7Q RAW pretty regularly lately, and it's a huge, huge improvement over the original FS700. And as Mitch says, they're just getting started.
 
I really think that the 'gap' is not at all clear, the Red with the current sensor is pretty old (that will change)

As for shooting - I like the low mass of the FS700, and like the solid lens mounts on Red.

To think that the Red must be better due to the sticker price is flawed logic.

A bit like looking at a 2007 top end computer compared to todays consumer computers..

S
 
If you are able to light properly, have enough time to set up properly then you will be absolutely fine. We shot with a pre O7Q FS700 to external recorders and whilst i can point to all sorts of problematic edge cases, broadly speaking the results are good enough. We've also just been shooting 2K RAW and i'm very happy with the tonality of the image, i can see the difference quite easily in skin tones etc,. I'm very much looking forward to 4K RAW because that will sort out any remaining issues i've got with edges and detail. I wish i had this a year ago!

What you will need to be wary of is that the 700 is not a robust piece of kit. You will need to be careful with it and you will need to make sure your lenses are supported properly from the rods. The lens mount is not rock solid, there is flex possible. If you are using follow focuses etc,.. with hard stops then you *have* to have that lens (or adapter) rock solid. A lot of adapters have tripod mounts underneath, use those the mount to rails.

I can't compare directly to Epic, but i took 700 over Epic when the choice was there because of the costs of rigging/gripping dealing with the Epic. I never regretted it once. Dynamic range is a tough one these days. I believe there's about 12 useable stops in the 700 which is more than adequate for most shooting conditions these days. I don't know what the useable range is on the Epic but a stop or two extra means nothing to me. The RAW makes it easier to access those 12 stops as well.

If you're asking about problematic cases though. You watch for extreme saturation from coloured lights, which includes green screen work. I've seen some truly horrendous green screen stuff from the 700 in some cases. I mean horrendous. I believe it to be a combination of colour overload with the conversion from 4K to 1080p inside the camera and some odd compression problems (422 DNxHD at the time). Other issues with extreme clipped colour highlights can create solarisation of the colour, pretty but not right. Interestingly the 2K RAW seems to handle the same extreme colour cases very well. Hence pointing the finger at the internal colour work of the camera, not the sensor.

But broadly speaking, been very happy with the camera. Been a real workhorse and the O7Q is the perfect match for it in so many ways. Sony should be bundling the O7Q at source :)

cheers
Paul
 
Roswelito said:
Hello pulpfiction, I understand what you tell. My question is about technical equipment only, we would have a proffesional cinematographer equipment, so it is not the question.
I have the doubt because all Hollywood Films are made with RED Epic, Arri Alexa or F65, and I would want to know how much difference is between these footage and RAW FS700 footage.
Click to expand...

I shoot some RAW -test with my FS700, and they looks good...

A001C011_131208YG00001_DPXs.jpg


Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/A001C011_131208YG00001_DPX.jpg

A002C026_1309176Q00001_DPXs.jpg


Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/A002C026_1309176Q00001_DPX.jpg

...but main difference between FS700 and RED Epic, Arri Alexa or F65 and F55 is limited color space of FS700 ( and Sony F5) which CFA ( Color Filter Array ) is set to produce REC. 709 for TV broadcast ... NOT for Cinema Production..

Here the difference:

F65_09.jpg


..... and RED Epic have much bigger sensor SIZE:

CameraSensors.jpg


....and cost much more $$$$$ :grin: ....

I don't say that you "cannot" shoot REALLY GOOD FILM with FS700 ... I belive that talanted DP able to do much more with FS700, than poor camera operator with Alexa or RED... :)
 
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To make much comment at this point is really a bit speculative, because no one has actually seen what the 700 can do (4k raw)

S
 
morgan_moore said:
To make much comment at this point is really a bit speculative, because no one has actually seen what the 700 can do (4k raw)

S
Click to expand...

What? Plenty of us have seen FS700 4k raw. The Sony solution has been out for awhile.
Adam Wilt and Art Adams shot some stuff (fake car spot) with this in like June 2013 I think.
It's just that the 7Q is a way better solution in terms of ergonomics, smaller, lighter and so
on. But as far as 4k raw from the FS700, it's been available for quite some time, my assumption
is that the 7Q 4k raw will be the same as the Sony solution, but without the 120 burst mode.
 
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